Difference between revisions of "The re-PSUPedia:Manual of style archive"

Revision as of 14:23, 16 April 2008

To help save space, older discussions and polls from the manual of style talk page will be archived here.

1 New enemy article layout
2 Mission page proposal
3 Star icons
4 Element colours
5 Weapon icons
6 Enemy page template
7 Unit page template
8 Slight modifications to the weapon template?
9 New line shield table proposal
10 Weapon Type Names
11 Misc. item tables
12 Capitalization
13 Unit tables
14 Mission info articles
15 Synthesis board suggestion
16 Line Shield & Slot Icons
17 Enemy spawn chart
18 Page-stretching and so forth
19 Capitalization and so forth
20 A few things
21 Abbreviations
22 Template Nonsense
23 Am I just blind, or what?
24 Voting on pending issues of style
25 Weapon listing table
26 Weapon template standard proposal
27 Weapon table revision
28 Individual item pages
29 Closed polls
- 29.1 VOTE: Abbreviations
- 29.2 VOTE: Heading and sub-heading capitalization
- 29.3 VOTE: Weapon template
- 29.4 VOTE: Item template
- 29.5 VOTE: Color-coding
- 29.6 VOTE: Main weapon listing table
- 29.7 VOTE: Drop templates
- 29.8 VOTE: Unit article template

New enemy article layout

I know we'd previously decided on an enemy article layout, but I've since done some tweaking to it, removing unnecessary information while adding in useful stuff from the Perfect Bible and prettifying the basic infobox and stat table. It can be seen here. Any suggestions or objections? - EspioKaos 09:23, 11 January 2008 (CST)

Mission page proposal

Making this my official proposal for our new mission articles. Behold! I do believe I've got everything tweaked just the way I want it. If anyone else has suggestions or ideas of their own for a similar page, please don't keep it to yourself! Create a new page and submit it here; otherwise I'd like to see us get to work on creating mission articles with this template as soon as possible. - EspioKaos 23:07, 4 November 2007 (CST)
Holy cow. I love this. - Miraglyth 02:54, 6 November 2007 (CST)
- Thanks, Mira! :) - EspioKaos 06:35, 6 November 2007 (CST)
Glad I could help on it, I still think i like the mission info box with cellspacing set to zero though just so it looks like the wikitable. -- KyTin 04:10, 6 November 2007 (CST)
Which is still being used on Planet's Scar don't know if I made the change on the sandbox or there now that I think about it lol. -- KyTin 04:14, 6 November 2007 (CST)
- Yeah, the infobox's cell spacing finally started to look fine to me. Besides, when it was made to look like the other tables, any text outside of the box ran right up to the side without leaving any space, and I just thought it looked a little sloppy. I still don't know why the text does that on the zero-cell-spaced one. XD - EspioKaos 06:35, 6 November 2007 (CST)
A lot like my old page at http://psupedia.info/User:Au/Sandbox that I never got around to complete or propose or anything. Glad you did! My comments. First, I would like the map pattern info to be on these pages too (could templatize these like the drops and have them both on the rare monster page and on the missions). Second, monster counts are nice too if available. Third, the 'Available ranks' field in the mission info box is not needed since you can get that info from the 'Mission requirements and rewards' section on the same screen, it's duplicate info. Fourth, I think the colors in the mission requirements box are ugly. Red for unavailable ranks is fine but the blue hurts my eyes. Rest looks good!
- Keep in mind that the blue background (likewise, the red) is completely temporary, as the blue will be taken away when the English version of the game receives that particular mission. Just like with the weapon/line shield tables where a currently-Japanese-only item hasn't made its way to us yet. I'd considered adding the spawn charts to the article, but I was afraid I might be throwing too much stuff in there. XD That's why I opted for a link to that particular mission's spawn chart at the top of the page. - EspioKaos 11:11, 6 November 2007 (CST)
The running text is a quick fix set cellspacing 0 on the main area then on the subs where the text is set it to 1-3 and problem solved. Let me know if you need any help with that i can show you what it will look like on the one that has it that way still. -- KyTin 10:38, 6 November 2007 (CST)
- Feel free to update that one like that, or if you want, you can copy-paste the code into a sandbox of your own to play around with and show us any adjustments you'd like to make. To be honest, though, I've actually become quite attached to the style I've got now. XD - EspioKaos 11:11, 6 November 2007 (CST)
- The template looks great to me, very readable, useful data when filled in etc. and any improvements can be made over time anyway. - Mewn 11:47, 6 November 2007 (CST)
I've updated my Grove of Fanatics article to include a (blank) rare spawn chart and to remove a little redundant information. Thoughts? - EspioKaos 11:48, 6 November 2007 (CST)
- Spawn information is exactly one of the things why I would want to look at a mission page, so I like it. One thingy though, I wouldn't name it a 'rare spawn chart' but just 'spawn chart'; all map information is interesting sometimes not just the rare ones. Au+ 12:13, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  - Ah, good point. I'll fix that. - EspioKaos 12:14, 6 November 2007 (CST)
- Perhaps a place for enemy counts would be useful as well. Though I imagine it wouldn't be easy to get the info.Propagandist 13:30, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  - OK, I've added it to the Grove article. Provided we have people willing to get counts on enemies, it shouldn't be too difficult, but exactly how useful is it? I mean, I can think of an example of wanting a certain item that drops from one enemy, so I'd want to find the mission with the most spawns of that one enemy to increase my chances of it dropping. But, otherwise I don't know. - EspioKaos 14:01, 6 November 2007 (CST)
Random thought what about the mission with variable exp such as rainbow beast S2. -- KyTin 15:18, 6 November 2007 (CST)
- D: It has variable EXP? I hadn't noticed. Can you elaborate on that for me? ;) - EspioKaos 15:20, 6 November 2007 (CST)
- I've never heard of variable EXP - EXP is static and depends on the monster, its level, and whether it has sword/shield/crown/whatever. If, as I'm guessing, you're referring to lower levels getting less EXP - there's actually an EXP penalty for killing monsters 31 levels or more above your level. Kinda stupid if you ask me, that's what level requirements are supposed to be for, but eh. - Mewn 15:34, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  - We had 6 people in the party running there the level req is 65 i think our party was levels 65-95. We had at least 3 different exp numbers possible more, I guess it could be from the penalty. The monsters there i think are level 100 I think so not sure how the penalty works out 100%. -- KyTin 16:21, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  - Like I said, the penalty applies if the monsters are 31 or more levels above your character (might be 30 actually, I'm not quite sure). Anyone in your party who was level 65-69/70 would receive less EXP from defeating Lv100 monsters than higher levels would, explaining the different EXP numbers. It's a sliding scale as well, a 65 would receive less EXP than a 69 would. - Mewn 16:24, 6 November 2007 (CST)
OK, so I think I'm just going to go ahead and start implementing the new design into mission pages that we need. I'm going to leave the counts table out, however, until we decide on its necessity or get them all created. If we decide that they would be good to have, we'll just add them in later. I will be leaving much of the EXP/MP/Meseta/drop/spawn info in the tables blank because (01) I'd like to get these templates set up quickly and (02) a lot of this data will be changing in next week's update anyway. - EspioKaos 14:03, 7 November 2007 (CST)

Star icons

Following on from the previous icon suggestions, since I have AoI and should be able to do it - instead of something like would it be better to take images directly from the game and use them for the star rarities? I find that a better idea because the 10-12* and 13-15* colours in particular do not go well with a white background. - Mewn 16:16, 4 October 2007 (BST)
- The stars taken from the game take up a lot more space; and might also prove to be tricky to get right since they're anti-aliased. We may be better off with hand-drawn stars; could just grab the ones we have now and draw a black border around them or so. Au+ 18:37, 4 October 2007 (BST)
  - Black borders sound ugleh. How well do the game rips shrink? That definitely sound preferable if done right. - Miraglyth 18:49, 4 October 2007 (BST)
Hey, Mewn? Let's give it a shot. When you get a chance, could you upload one star of each color? We can turn them into templates to see how they look and go from there. ;) - EspioKaos 13:03, 4 November 2007 (CST)
Thanks to Mewn, we now have our new batch of star icons. (See Alteratsu Cauda for an example of their use.) Anyone have any objections to templatizing them and putting them to use across the site? - EspioKaos 23:08, 4 November 2007 (CST)
Seems like there are no real objections. I'll do the templates. - Mewn 15:35, 5 November 2007 (CST)
I know this is a little late but if anyone is interested I'll try my hand at making a set of star icons that match the rips as closely as possible.Propagandist 00:47, 6 November 2007 (CST)
- Here is what I came up with. Each star is currently 18px square. Let me know if there are any changes to be made. I made the background transparent so we don't get the grey background. If you like them, I'll split them into separate star graphics for each color. On another somewhat related note, I was thinking about trying to get the 13-15 stars to animate similarly to the way the do in the game (of course I haven't actually seen what that looks like). Any thoughts on that? Propagandist 03:27, 6 November 2007 (CST)
- I updated the star graphic so they are 16px square. Let me know if they look okay.Propagandist 14:23, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  - Perfect! - EspioKaos 14:28, 6 November 2007 (CST)
- I uploaded the final versions of the stars. I did one star per file so we can assemble them using templates.Propagandist 14:12, 7 November 2007 (CST)
  - Thanks! They've been templatized. :D - EspioKaos 14:35, 7 November 2007 (CST)
I can't say I'm a fan of rectangular grey blocks. Otherwise, lookin' fine. - Miraglyth 02:53, 6 November 2007 (CST)
Excellent, Propagandist! Love the idea of the stars from 13-15 being animated, too. ;) The only suggestion I can make would be to maybe scale these down just a little bit, probably to about the size of the stars we're using now. The images now are 18px tall, but when I cropped them, I left 1px of gray space on all sides, so the stars are only 16px tall. - EspioKaos 06:32, 6 November 2007 (CST)
They do look really good. I wanted to get rid of the grey background myself but I don't really have the talent to do it, not being particularly graphics-savvy. The idea of the 13th-15th stars being animated is cool as well, from memory they glow from a golden-browny colour to light cream (almost white), but it might be better to wait until AoI is released so you can see for yourself. - Mewn 11:43, 6 November 2007 (CST)

Element colours

Similar to below suggestion, why not standardise element colour (where necessary, if anywhere) to that of the colour used in the weapon palette, PA menu, etc.? - Miraglyth 08:39, 29 September 2007 (BST)
- Agreed. I'll work on that after while (going to work with the weapons icons first), and we can keep adjusting things where necessary until we have the set of colors we like best. - EspioKaos 04:49, 30 September 2007 (BST)
  - It doesn't help the wiki any, really, but if the white part of all the weapon icons was made transparent, people could use cellpadding=0 and a background color in a table to display a weapon of a particular element. - Miraglyth 07:45, 1 October 2007 (BST)

Weapon icons

What do you guys think about using the in-game icons for weapon categories in the weapon stats tables instead of the typed out name? I figure in the cases of names like double saber and grenade, it would greatly reduce the amount that the first column is stretched out (as well as get rid of any double spaced cells). We could always do vector drawings of the icons, or just get nice shots of them from the game itself. Or, we could just use the ones SonicTeam put up on their new PSU site. - EspioKaos 19:00, 28 September 2007 (BST)
That sounds good to me. The icons are generally easy enough to recognize. Can images be made to link to articles? If they can't, that would present a problem, but otherwise I'm fine with it. - Mewn 00:13, 29 September 2007 (BST)
- I'm fairly certain that we can make images link to other articles. I'll look into it. - EspioKaos 04:50, 30 September 2007 (BST)
- Sounds like a very good idea. I actually intended to do this at some point, but then forgot. I see no reason why pictures from the game would not work. --Qwerty 00:18, 29 September 2007 (BST)

Enemy page template

I'm happy with the enemy template now, so I'd like to propose it formally. If there's to be a vote, I'll let Espio handle it, heheh. Anyway, final discussion, opinions, any tulips and/or roses, etc. - Mewn 18:12, 14 September 2007 (BST)
- Looks good to me; I could only suggest minor tweaks, such as the use of icons in place of leader boosts, shoe boosts and the like in the boosts column. I think we actually already have the appropriate icons for those somewhere on the site. If anyone suggests a unique alternate proposal, we'll put things to a vote. Otherwise, I think we should go with this and make any minor changes if necessary. Objections from anyone? EspioKaos 19:40, 14 September 2007 (BST)
That can be easily done. I'll change the icons now. Seems better than 'shoe boosts' which has never seemed right to me anyway. - Mewn 20:15, 14 September 2007 (BST)
- Sweet. That looks great! :D EspioKaos 20:25, 14 September 2007 (BST)

Ok, if there are no more comments, or objections or suggestions or whatever, by the time I check this site tomorrow morning (probably about 11AM GMT), I feel it should become the template as I'd like to start making a few articles with it. Alkaven is working on a few templates that seem fine so far, so hopefully we'll be able to use them (and if they aren't ready, it can always be implemented a bit later). - Mewn 21:48, 15 September 2007 (BST)

Unit page template

After Alkaven started a new page for Cara / Force, I remembered that we hadn't finalized a standard template for the unit pages. There was discussion going on, but that kind of trailed off. So, let's finish this off, right? I'm going to start a poll with the two formats we have (this one and this one), but if anyone else has any other designs in mind, please let us know. EspioKaos 00:33, 11 September 2007 (BST)

Slight modifications to the weapon template?

There was mention a while back about a few minor things on the weapon template that might be altered. I can't seem to find where it was, however. Anyway, one thing I was wondering about is the drop box. In the Deva-zashi template given on our example page, monter is used, when, well... not everything these items can drop from should be classified as such. (I believe I brought up the example of there being newman, beast and CAST enemies in-game that aren't exactly monsters since they aren't infected by the SEED-Virus or something. They're simply acting out of their own zeal and free will.) Anyway, I'd like to suggest changing monster to enemy. I've actually already done that with the weapon pages I've created, but if we decide to keep it as monster, I'll change them back myself. I know this is ridiculously minor, but I felt it needed to be mentioned. <_<; EspioKaos 23:40, 8 September 2007 (BST)
- Said beforehand that I thought "enemy" was more fitting, and I still hold to this view. - Miraglyth 00:01, 9 September 2007 (BST)
  - Sweet. So, I guess no objections on this? ;) EspioKaos 17:41, 12 September 2007 (BST)

New line shield table proposal

Here is my proposal for a new line shield table. I took out a number of columns that I felt were unnecessary, such as the element (for ones that can only be a specific element, this can be detailed in individual articles) and the Att, Acc and Tech columns, which can also be detailed in individual articles. (I guess these are the "hidden" stats from set bonuses and line shields made for specific battle types?) Thoughts? EspioKaos 04:19, 7 September 2007 (BST)
- Erm... anyone? <_<; EspioKaos 06:24, 8 September 2007 (BST)
  - Personally I consider the element - both NPC and synth limitation - to be one of the defining characteristics of a Line Shield. The Att./Acc./Tech. values not so much, but still directly useful information when looking up a table of Line Shields. I do however like the condensing of slots a lot! As for the comments, I believe set bonuses (with link - nice one) and Type limitations should be the focus, but not drop locations for every other shield that "might not be easy to find". - Miraglyth 11:30, 8 September 2007 (BST)
  - I have to agree with Mira on the element, it's an important part of the data. I too like the way you've done the Slots. The stuff such as bonuses to Att and Acc can be detailed in the Comments column. Other than that I think it looks better than the current table. - Mewn 16:35, 8 September 2007 (BST)
    - OK, check out my second table. I added the element column back in (also created temporary templates for each element color -- we can fine-tune the actual colors later). What I'm going for is using the neutral green to identify a line shield that can be synthesized with any element you want. Any line shields that can only be one specific element will have that element listed. EspioKaos 16:38, 8 September 2007 (BST)
    - That looks fine to me, certainly less cluttered than the other table. - Mewn 18:33, 8 September 2007 (BST)
      - "What I'm going for is using the neutral green to identify a line shield that can be synthesized with any element you want." -- Actually, that was already the case. - Miraglyth 23:59, 8 September 2007 (BST)
        Oh, heh. >_>; EspioKaos 00:12, 9 September 2007 (BST)
        Not sure what your line (no pun intended) of reasoning was, but mine was that only non-limited shields were capable of being green. - Miraglyth 02:51, 11 September 2007 (BST)
        Yup, that was it. EspioKaos 03:11, 11 September 2007 (BST)

Weapon Type Names

No objection, but just to clarify - Mewn's renaming of "Bows" to "Longbows" and "Grenade Launchers" to "Grenades" :| is to fit in with the weapon types listed at the "License" missions, right? - Miraglyth 23:38, 4 September 2007 (BST)
Yes, you're right. I feel we should maintain some consistency, and Throwing Blades already got renamed to Cards by Espio half a month ago. I suppose I should point out that the Bullet License missions uses both 'Longbow' and 'Long Bow', but since I've never seen it spelled with a space, I assumed the former was the correct term and the latter was a typo. - Mewn 23:57, 4 September 2007 (BST)
Works for me. :) EspioKaos 04:19, 7 September 2007 (BST)

Misc. item tables

I've been playing around with what our possible template for non-stat-based items could look like. Just like with the weapon tables, I've categorized each remodeling ticket by its star rating, followed by name. The next column lists prices, which is more or less filler. Same thing goes with the description column. The version column is needed since we already know that there will be AotI-exclusive tickets. The comments column I kept and used just like with the weapons. Personally, I'd like to stick with keeping information like the item description and price within individual item pages, but without that stuff in this table, everything looks so thin and bare. Any ideas? EspioKaos 05:37, 25 August 2007 (BST)

Capitalization

I'd like to get a little discussion going on this subject. While I've listed most "odd" instances of capitalization in-game (TECHNICs, CASTs, GUARDIANS Colony, etc.), I think we should talk about how we'll capitalize things like healing item names (should they be considered proper nouns?). Thoughts, opinions? EspioKaos 17:17, 21 August 2007 (BST)
- I think item names should be capitalized as proper nouns, if for no other reason than it looks better to me. - Mewn 17:34, 21 August 2007 (BST)
  - I've been torn between both sides for a while, but after looking at how odd things like scape doll and moon atomizer look without capitals, I've found myself leaning more toward considering them proper nouns. Of course, I still think that individual item categories (recovery items, shotguns, line shields, etc.) should not be considered proper, and thus should not be capitalized. EspioKaos 18:48, 21 August 2007 (BST)
On the recent capitalization swapping of the line shield and photon arts sections, I think it should be pointed out that both are considered standard nouns in-game, so no special capitalization is required. For example, check out the line shield descriptions. You'll see "a mass-produced line shield" or "a super high-end, custom-made line shield" (man, they really like their hyphenated words). On photon arts, I'm fairly certain that the menus do not capitalize the word, but I'll have to double-check that next time I play. EspioKaos 18:01, 8 September 2007 (BST)
- I originally decapitalised Line Shields to Line shields, and Mewn changed Photon Arts to Photon arts, but you will find numerous places - particularly the manual - that deliberately capitalise both. The same applies to Photon Fortune, by the way. You are right though - the game does not capitalise it in that menu, but AFAIK all menus are "first letter is capital, all the rest are lower" so I'll question the weight of that. - Miraglyth 00:04, 9 September 2007 (BST)
  - Heh, it's times like these that I wish English were like Japanese with not having to deal with capitalization. Either that, or SEGA had been consistent with it. XD Anyway, I just checked the in-game tutorial, and it recognizes photon arts as a standard noun with no special caps. o_o EspioKaos 00:20, 9 September 2007 (BST)

I really hate bringing this back up about photon arts and line shields, but I've been finding numerous in-game instances which consider these normal nouns, thus no need for capitalization. In Episode 1 for example, there's the photon art and line shield fanatic NPCs, neither of which capitalize these words. If you transfer a PA back to its disc form, it's photon art. Same thing with the vision phone tutorial thing. And not only do descriptions for line shields capitalize it as such, but check the tutorial glossary thinger in your room. Same thing there. (The exact counterattack description is one such place it shows up. That brings up something else: just attack and just counter are called exact attack and exact counterattack in-game. I guess we can address that later.) Basically, I'm just saying that we should go with in-game terminology/capitalization when given the option. And in cases where there are inconsistencies (which happen way too often for my liking), we either vote on a decision or go with the example set by the majority of in-game instances. (In this example, lowercase line shield and photon art take the majority of in-game examples.) As far as things go that are covered in the manual but not the game (i.e. Photon Fortune), the manual version will prevail since it's the next closest official source. - EspioKaos 12:12, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Can vouch for the game apparently preferring decapitalisation on line shields - notably the conditional search uses the lower case. In return, however, it considers all weapons to be proper nouns. - Miraglyth 13:55, 27 January 2008 (CST)
- True, but I've noticed that in the tutorial and glossary sections, the game favors lowercase lettering for weapon categories while keeping the naming conventions of the conditional search as opposed to item descriptions. (In the TECHNICs tutorial, rod is used instead of long staff, for example.) Even though the conditional search capitalizes weapon categories, most other uses of the words that I've seen are lower case. Besides, it just makes a lot more sense to me that generic categories be considered standard nouns (line shields, twin handguns, rods, etc.) while specific items within those categories are proper nouns (Rabol Lebfa, Evil Twins, Marguisa, etc.). Just like how Glocks and Desert Eagles are two types of pistols. - EspioKaos 15:48, 27 January 2008 (CST)
  - I'll go with that. I was unaware there was a complete set of names outside of the conditional shop search. - Miraglyth 17:09, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Unit tables

Rank	Name	Maker	Tech.	Ment.	Ver.	Comments
1★	Cara / Force		20	0		--
1★	Cara / Mind		0	10		--
Rank	Name	Maker	Tech.	Ment.	Ver.	Comments
6★	Te / Force S		100	-50		--
Rank	Name	Maker	Tech.	Ment.	Ver.	Comments
9★	Te / TECH PP Save		-30	0		Lowers PP usage and TP.

This is the general idea for unit tables. Of course, we'll swap out Tech and Ment with Att, Acc, Def, Eva and End where applicable. Anything else we should add? EspioKaos 03:07, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Just wanted to add that I've done the initial conversion of the tables for both online and offline. You can find it here, I'll keep it updated with any suggestions/changes until the format is finalized. Propagandist 04:56, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Excellent work! :D Two things. First, a few of the offline S-rank units are identified with the A-rank green. Minor, I know. ;) Second, in a few of the comments sections, it might look better with commas or semicolons separating two descriptions (Hard / Power Charge, for example). Or maybe line breaks. EspioKaos 05:06, 18 August 2007 (BST)
- Thanks, I wasn't able to check on those as I was at work. Now that I'm home, I'll go through and double check all of the units to make sure it's accurate. I've also a few ideas for the comments that I want to try out. I'll note any major updates on this talk page. Propagandist 05:45, 18 August 2007 (BST)
  - So, how we doing on this? The adjustments you've made look great, and really, the only other thing I can suggest just has to do with capitalization of a few things in the "comments" column. To be honest, I think we're ready for approval and all. :) EspioKaos 17:23, 8 September 2007 (BST)
    - It's essentially done, I'm not entirely sure all of the units are accurate but that can be cleared up when it is put out on the main page I guess. Let me know and I'll put it up (of course, you can do that too I guess).Propagandist 23:05, 8 September 2007 (BST)
      - On the Te / TECH PP Save example above, don't we know how much it lowers the PP usage? - Miraglyth 00:05, 9 September 2007 (BST)
        Yeah, it's actually included in Prop's tables. EspioKaos 00:30, 9 September 2007 (BST)

Mission info articles

This is what I have in mind for individual mission articles. Of course, fill in the enemy and drop sections with actual information. Opinions? Suggestions? EspioKaos 00:08, 17 August 2007 (BST)

I suggest an infobox (à la Wikipedia) to the side showing at least the following things:
- Mission name (maybe JP name as well, since there is a large difference between the two in many cases)
- Start Counter
- Destination
- Area(s) that the mission takes place in (e.g. Mad Creatures takes place in Raffon Meadow, Mad Beasts in Raffon Lakeshore etc.)
- Type of mission (Free, Story, Co-Op, Party, Event)
- Available ranks
- Elements represented in the mission. - Mewn 12:03, 17 August 2007 (BST)

I'll see if I can take a shot at making a design like this when I have a chance. (Sometimes tables just don't come out like I want, though, so no promises. XD) EspioKaos 03:36, 18 August 2007 (BST)

I'm for Mewn's idea. - Miraglyth 00:06, 9 September 2007 (BST)
- Guess it wouldn't hurt to get this going again. Gentlemen, behold! Planet's Scar D: That's the basic idea; of course enemy info will have to be added; drop tables and all that, too. - EspioKaos 14:43, 2 November 2007 (CDT)
OK, so how's this? - EspioKaos 11:19, 4 November 2007 (CST)

Synthesis board suggestion

(Copied from the scape doll talk page.) I really hate questioning something that we're trying to set as a standard, but I think this might be a valid point. While working on the scape doll's board info, I realized that the rarity of the board and the rarity of the item are different. While I don't think this is a common occurrence, I think we should address it before we begin a mass implementation of synth board tables, especially since the board rarity is never mentioned anywhere. I suggest changing the title of the table to the board name and then changing the current board name cell to indicate rarity. Like so:

[B] Scape Doll
Food	Hustle Berry x5	Chemical	Omega Acid x2
[B] Uses	1	Base Rate	100%
Synth Time	00:00	[B] Rarity	7★

I think we should do this, unless we're going to make individual pages for each board. Actually, that's something else. Should we do that, or just make a synth board redirect to the page of the item it creates? EspioKaos 18:40, 13 August 2007 (BST)

I'd be all for individual pages for boards, but the simplicity of putting board and item on one page is clear to me as well. --Beatrixkiddo 23:17, 13 August 2007 (BST)

I have to admit, I'm not much a fan of this style. Why?

Title goes here
Material 1	Material 2
Material 3	Material 4
Synth Detail 1	Synth Detail 2
Synth Detail 3	Synth Detail 4

Seems a very strange way of arranging it to me, and not particularly conductive to finding out the desired information on a synthesis quickly. Additionally, there's a lot of "style="background:sixcharacters"" expressions in there which - while easily eliminated by a template - would surely be better off made header cells (start with ! instead of | ) and then just make the "title" cell darker manually.

If I may pitch in a couple of ideas:

Horizontal Item
Details	[B] Needed	[B] Uses	Synth Time	Base Rate
Details	[B] Item	x	0hrs	100%
Materials	Photon	Ore	Metal	Wood
Materials	<photon>	<ore>	<metal>	<wood>

Vertical Item
Details		Materials
[B] Needed	[B] Item	Photon	<photon>
[B] Uses	x	Ore	<ore>
Synth Time	0hrs	Metal	<metal>
Base Rate	100%	Wood	<wood>

Actually, the code for the second one isn't edit-friendly at all. But some might prefer the look so I'll leave it there. - Miraglyth 00:07, 14 August 2007 (BST)

- I like how the vertical version looks. One problem, though: what to do with the empty cells for boards that have less than four materials? Also, I still favor the idea of keeping the title of the table the name of the board it's about. EspioKaos 16:24, 14 August 2007 (BST)
I do too, come to think of it.

The "number of materials" thing could do with exploration. By nature, all weapons require four (Photons, Ores, Metals, Wood) and some line shields require four (Photons, Ores, Materials, sometimes event drops). Then there are Food and Item boards which take two (Natural Materials, Chemicals), Decoration boards which take two (Special Materials, Wood) and finally Grinder / Material Upgrade boards which use just one (Grinder bases and the materials, respectively).

It's the last two that bother me, since those won't fit into the "vertical with oddly-grouped" setup either. - Miraglyth 18:35, 14 August 2007 (BST)

- We could always take the route of unique tables for each type of synthesis board, but do what we can to make them all have the same general feel. Maybe? I'll give some more thought to it to see if I can come up with another design. EspioKaos 19:10, 14 August 2007 (BST)
- Having come back to this after a couple of weeks, the answer seems pretty simple: Given that Line Shields sometimes have an "event" material (the field for which could be left blank for the rest), all synthesis categories require either 1 (Grinders), 2 (Decos, Items, Food) or 4 (Weapons, Line Shields) materials. This is very friendly to the "Horizontal Item" layout above as 4 is divisible by 1, 2 and 4 hence colspan would work nicely. Observe:

Sori-senba
Details	[B] Needed	[B] Uses	Synth Time	Base Rate
Details	[B] Sori-senba	3	8h	1%
Materials	Photon	Ore	Material	Event
Materials	Ray-photon x15	Vestaline x25	Ortaresin x35	<none>

Monomate
Details	[B] Needed	[B] Uses	Synth Time	Base Rate
Details	[B] Monomate	20	0h	100%
Materials	Natural		Chemical
Materials	Sweet Berry		Trans Acid

Airboard
Details	[B] Needed	[B] Uses	Synth Time	Base Rate
Details	[B] Parum Souvenir	1	15m	60%
Materials	Ingredient
Materials	Par Ash x20

Just keeping the ideas going. - Miraglyth 03:10, 11 September 2007 (BST)
- That does work very nicely. I like it! Perhaps details and materials could be put in bold, however. I think that might look even better. EspioKaos 03:22, 11 September 2007 (BST)
  - ...agreed. They actually are in that vertical table. I missed it in the first horizontal table though, and the following examples carried that mistake down ^^ - Miraglyth 18:54, 11 September 2007 (BST)

Line Shield & Slot Icons

Maybe they are here but i cannot find them if not though I hope a PC user will be willing to help with this as i cannot take screen shots. Can someone make icons for the Line Shields, Head Slots, Arm Slots, Body Slots & Extra Slots? Should be a hard task with a good screen shot and would be a nice touch for drop charts among other things. -- KyTin 14:53, 7 November 2007 (CST)
- I was planning on doing this eventually, actually. :) I'd like to use the slot icons in the line shield chart instead of H, A, B and E. Also, I'd planned on using the line shield icon in each line shield article's stat box, just so it doesn't stretch the table out when "line shield" is broken into two lines. I'm at work right now, so I don't have a way to take screens, but when I get home (won't be until much, much later tonight, however), I can put together the icons if I have time. - EspioKaos 14:59, 7 November 2007 (CST)
  - Cool, sure they will be put to a lot of use if i can help let me know. -- KyTin 15:13, 7 November 2007 (CST)
  - Looks good to me Dulk-senba, anyone mind if we template the icon. -- KyTin 20:38, 8 November 2007 (CST)
    - Templatized. :D - EspioKaos 21:41, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Enemy spawn chart

There's some variation amongst the various mission articles and within the slightly elder Rare monsters article itself, so perhaps we should finalise and roll out a standard enemy spawn chart. Things like wikitable and the use of {{Color-A}} are no-brainers, but things like the position of the left-most cloumns or the notation of spawn patterns could use some tightening up. - Miraglyth 18:17, 21 December 2007 (CST)
- Thrown together everything I can think of at the moment: see here. - Miraglyth 19:23, 21 December 2007 (CST)
  - I know this one's not high on the priority list, but bumping it anyway because Amaury's sandstorm buried it before many would have noticed. - Miraglyth 08:40, 22 December 2007 (CST)
- Looks great to me. The only thing I could suggest is minor, and that would be to correct a few capitalizations in the table headings. ;) - EspioKaos 09:58, 22 December 2007 (CST)
  - How about now? Still unsure on whether to push "first spawn" or "initial spawn" (I know it doesn't really matter, but :/ ) and what to do if two map variations share the same block 1. - Miraglyth 08:01, 23 December 2007 (CST)
    - Excellent. And I say go with "initial spawn." Like you said, it doesn't really matter, but I just think it sounds better. ;) - EspioKaos 08:15, 23 December 2007 (CST)
      - Doubt there'll be further objections, so all that's left is what to do with shared block 1s. As far as I'm concerned, Rare monsters#Fight For Food is an example of vertical stretching looking horrible. My suggestions would be to do as the example is only with far smaller images, or to simply show just the block 2s (and note that), and link the shared block 1 image in the notes beneath the spawn chart. - Miraglyth 08:42, 23 December 2007 (CST)
Just did a little testing on Fight for Food's chart with smaller images by reducing the A and B pattern images down to 150px. It works, but it looks a little funny. So, I say show block 2 in the chart and make a footnote (with image link) stating that block 1 will look the same between both patterns. - EspioKaos 08:52, 23 December 2007 (CST)
- Yeah, should be fine. I don't know how to image link without making it considered an external link though, I must admit. - Miraglyth 10:12, 23 December 2007 (CST)
On another note, if the "certainly not rare" and "certainly rare" colours are fine, suggest making templates such as {{NotRare}} for their code. - Miraglyth 10:12, 23 December 2007 (CST)
- I'll have to look into making templates for the colors. I'm not sure if I just didn't something wrong, but my first attempt ended in table destruction when I previewed it. D: - EspioKaos 10:32, 23 December 2007 (CST)
  - Made everything red? There'd probably need to be a {{/Rare]} tag that closes off the formatting and (if we go with it ) bolding. - Miraglyth 10:35, 23 December 2007 (CST)
    - Ah, figured it out. I used HTML tags instead of style tags in my first attempt, and that's what killed everything. {{Rare spawn}} and {{Not rare}} are the two templates for this. - EspioKaos 11:02, 23 December 2007 (CST)
      - They were HTML because it seems the only way to target specific text. Those tags as-are will only operate on entire cells. - Miraglyth 11:19, 23 December 2007 (CST)
        Ah, good point. These will also change the color of initial spawn or whatever other descriptor text is in the cell. We might just have to stick with using un-templated HTML tags to target what we want colored. I don't think that'd be too much of an issue. - EspioKaos 12:03, 23 December 2007 (CST)
        My thoughts were thus:

Template	Content	Effect
{{RareN}}	<font color="#ff0000">'''	Starts red and bolding.
{{RareY}}	<font color="#007f00">'''	Starts darkgreen and bolding.
{{/Rare}}	'''</font>	Stops bolding and either color.

'course it's not necessary at all, but it's a fair amount of hassle and space saved, was the intention. - Miraglyth 12:38, 23 December 2007 (CST)

I'm running into the same problem as before. D:

Example	Meaning
Koltova x4 & Vahra x2	4 Koltova and 2 Vahra will spawn all at once.
Koltova x4 + Vahra x2	4 Koltova will spawn, and 2 Vahra will spawn when some of the Koltova are killed.
Koltova x4 → Vahra x2	4 Koltova will spawn, then 2 Vahra will spawn after all of the Koltova are killed.
Koltova x4+4	4 Koltova will spawn, and 4 more will spawn when some are killed.
'*Koltova x4The re-PSUPedia:Manual of style archive/Rare*	If you get to this point and see the stated spawn, the map variation cannot be rare.
'*Vahra x4The re-PSUPedia:Manual of style archive/Rare*	If you get to this point and see the stated spawn, the map variation is certainly rare.

That's what happens. D: - EspioKaos 12:49, 23 December 2007 (CST)

- Yeah, I tried pretty much the same thing after watchin' ya make those. I have an idea though, let me try something out. - Miraglyth 12:52, 23 December 2007 (CST)
  - Success. It's still about as short as before, with the benefit of being under one template. Whaddaya think? - Miraglyth 13:05, 23 December 2007 (CST)
    - Excellent! That's perfect! - EspioKaos 13:07, 23 December 2007 (CST)
      - Alright, I'm happy with that sandbox as it is. This isn't really the sort of thing that can be put to vote, but how about leaving this one open for 5 days or so in case anyone else has suggestions before pushing for it as the standard to be used in mission articles? - Miraglyth 13:12, 23 December 2007 (CST)
        Sounds good to me. - EspioKaos 13:18, 23 December 2007 (CST)
        Quick bump before deadline. Linky again. Anyone got any further changes or suggestions before time runs out on this one? - Miraglyth 09:36, 27 December 2007 (CST)
        Fine as it is, then? - Miraglyth 08:54, 28 December 2007 (CST)
        Five days with no further suggestions from anyone; I think we're good to go. Now we can begin transferring spawn data to individual mission articles. - EspioKaos 10:28, 28 December 2007 (CST)
        Ahaha, darnit. It's just occured to me that "details" might be a better word than "features" due to character width. It also feels a little more objective, though I kinda like the flavour of "features". - Miraglyth 19:15, 28 December 2007 (CST)
        I have to agree. It's a small change, so it won't take much time at all to swap the wording in the tables that have been converted. I'm going to finish up the Duel in the Ruins chart I'm converting, then I'll make the changes to the tables we have in place. ;) - EspioKaos 20:15, 28 December 2007 (CST)
        Sure you've noticed, but heads-up: Just converted all the GC and Parum mission articles so the tables are ready for the new format. Also went psycho on the existing Rare monsters article. - Miraglyth 20:30, 28 December 2007 (CST)
        Heh heh, I see! Good to be making progress of course. Now that I've converted the Duel in the Ruins table, I'll change the wording of the tables that need it from "features" to "details," then I'll see about converting more tables. I'd like to try to get the most wanted ones that people are always asking about done to help give mission articles more exposure. - EspioKaos 20:38, 28 December 2007 (CST)
(Too many bullets >.<) On an edit-side note, what's your view on the coding format? Many of the tables in Rare monsters use a separate row for every cell, which does nothing to the article size but might make editing a little easier. - Miraglyth 20:44, 28 December 2007 (CST)
- I noticed the different coding in the Duel in the Ruins table. It threw me off for a second at first, to be honest. XD Personally, I prefer the style of separating cells in a row with double vertical pipes. (I think that's what they're called.) I've just gotten used to it, I guess. - EspioKaos 20:50, 28 December 2007 (CST)

Page-stretching and so forth

Well, I was able to fix the stretching of the page with the addition of the code and nowiki tags, but the result is now a bit more jumbled, as line breaks are no longer obvious. We'll have to mess around with it some more to see if we can make a work-around. Of course, we could always take it out of table format and just have the section divided vertically. (The first part is "what you type" and the second part is "what you get.") EspioKaos 19:02, 31 July 2007 (BST)
- The code part of the table probably doesn't have to be "as-is." It may be possible to modify the appearance of the code on the page, while the actual text (when copypasted into a edit box) will produce the same result as what's seen. F Gattaca 19:21, 31 July 2007 (BST)
  - I've played around with it some more, but I can't seem to come up with a way to make the code retain its line breaks so that the table will show up properly when inserted into a new page. (I'm still kind of green when it comes to wiki-coding, so I probably missed something.) So, until we can figure out a way to resolve this using the side-by-side comparison, I'm going to change things over a bit to where the code and result display vertically. We don't want people trying to use the jumbled code to think it doesn't work right because of the lack of line breaks, right? ;) EspioKaos 15:47, 1 August 2007 (BST)

Capitalization and so forth

I've been looking at the Wikipedia Manual of Style for inspiration on getting this section going, and I realized that they prefer the capitalization of titles to follow the rule of the first letter being in caps with all subsequent words (sans proper nouns, of course) being in lowercase. I know we don't have to follow this since PSUPedia is not a part of Wikipedia, but should we follow it? Personally, I actually like how it looks. What are you guys' thoughts on this? EspioKaos 18:43, 31 July 2007 (BST)
- This kind of thing seems highly dependent on the organization's preference. I tried looking up manuals of style that deal with subheadings (as these would be). This college's First-Year English FAQ demonstrates the APA's way of treating headings and subheadings, which in some ways could be applied to a wiki.
  
  Meanwhile, the AJA's manual of style says to capitalize only the first word and important words but not to put a period or other punctuation at the end of the subheading.
  
  The MLA says that each word in a title is capitalized, except for articles (a, an, the), prepositions (against, between,in, of, to), conjunctions (and, but, for, nor, or, so, yet), and the infinitive to.
  
  I guess it's mostly up to what we want to see, but I'm predisposed towards using capitalization of words in high-level headings ("==" type), but not in lower-level headings. F Gattaca 19:22, 31 July 2007 (BST)
I think we should follow it, but let's wait and see what others say first. - Mewn 19:26, 31 July 2007 (BST)
I think we should follow the MLA-type standard, since it just makes the most sense, and is how everything (books, movies, articles, magazines, etc.) is titled. --Qwerty 20:15, 31 July 2007 (BST)

A few things

Not sure exactly if these are supposed to be in this Manual of Style, but a few things for consideration:
- Any names (of NPCs, items, missions, places, etc.) that have been translated from Japanese due to the lack of an official localization are to be put in parantheses until the official localization is known, at which point the localization takes precedence. An example is Fight For Food, which until the US closed beta shortly before release was known by its Japanese name of (Farm Plant Recovery).
- Item types should be referred to by their proper names if possible, i.e. Line Shields instead of Armor.
- To head off any future problems, weapon type names should be made consistent - particularly Cards/Throwing Blades/whatever the flavour of the month name is. I propose we use Cards, as that is how the Perfect Bible and PSU-Wiki refer to them.
- When writing the star rarity of an item, use the ★ symbol consistently. Don't use * or anything like that. It can be reproduced by copy/pasting or switching to Japanese input and typing 'hoshi' (then pressing Space to change it).
- For consistency, since the game is in US English, we use US English here as well. See here for the major differences.

If I think of anything else I'll list it here. - Mewn 19:26, 31 July 2007 (BST)

Excellent! I'll get started on working these things in. EspioKaos 20:40, 31 July 2007 (BST)
er, not trying to make much of a point here, but just for the record, in Europe the game was released with dialogue in British English plus three other European languages. I agree to preserve US English preferences for the wiki articles though, if only to adhere to the dominant standard. - Tycho 17:26, 6 August 2007 (BST)

Abbreviations

Dun dun dun! Now we get to the abbreviations and what we'll consistently use when it comes to type names. I, for one, side with Sounomi's proposal, which creates a case-insensitive, easy-to-recognize abbreviation for types that would share letters under the abbreviations that originated from the Japanese wiki. For example, Fighgunner and Fortegunner would be FI and FG, respectively. I haven't added in the type abbreviations to the list just yet, as we first should come to a consensus on what we'll use. EspioKaos 19:45, 31 July 2007 (BST)
Ah, this spectre. I personally support and use the PSU-Wiki abbreviations and have no real problem differentiating between fG and FG, but whichever is clearer to the majority would be the one to go with. My vote goes to the PSU-Wiki abbreviations, though. - Mewn 19:53, 31 July 2007 (BST)
I will definitely and adamantly support the traditional (i.e. FG/fG) style abbreviations, simply because they have been used by the vast majority for almost a year now. I have no difficulty distinguishing between FG and fG, especially given context. Furthermore, I do not see the need to be meticulous when it comes to Att. versus ATP and the like. To be absolutely honest, I think that it is stupid that there is even a difference in game, and I never see people use Att., Def., Eva., and the like. I do not see why we can't just use ATP/ATA/DFP/EVP/MST/etc. for everything, simply because it eliminates confusion and those are the abbreviations most commonly used. However, I reckon my opinion will be in the minority on that issue. --Qwerty 20:06, 31 July 2007 (BST)
- That's an excellent point, Qwerty. I think I'll actually merge a few things together, making Acc. and ATA under the same listing with a general description as opposed to the "in reference to weapon stats" descriptor. EspioKaos 20:25, 31 July 2007 (BST)
- I strongly side with Sounomi's style. It's much better to have two unique letter combinations for a type class, not to mention "FI" is a nod to the "first two letters" abbreviation rule of the old PSO days. it's also not case dependent; that helps avoid confusion with mis-capped abbreviations or people who just throw the shift key out the window (I've encountered situations like this before!). I personally use it for my user page as well as my signature on PSO-World.
  
  As far as the "Att." and "Acc." issue, it might be a good idea if the weapon tables link to Stats and the corresponding stat, so that people who aren't PSOldschool will understand it's the same thing. F Gattaca 21:26, 31 July 2007 (BST)
  - Well, FI might be slightly less confusing to some, but FG/fG has been used as the standard for a year, and I must favor precedent. --Qwerty 21:47, 31 July 2007 (BST)
    - Good idea on linking the stat abbreviation to its article, Gattaca. I'll see if I can do some cleaning up of the stats page and we can get everything linked over as we go with page redesigns. As far as the type abbreviations go, we're tied with two for the JP wiki style and two for Sounomi's style. EspioKaos 15:38, 1 August 2007 (BST)
- I just found something interesting on the abbreviation thing at the JP wiki. Apparently there was much debating over what the abbreviations they use should be, and the issue of confusion between fG and FG was brought up many times. Some suggestions users over there made to get around this include Fr to stand for "forte." So, FrF would be Fortefighter. Also, someone suggested FFi, FGu and FTe for Fortefighter, Fortegunner and Fortetecher, respectively. Many more suggestions were made, but that's way too many to list. EspioKaos 03:57, 4 August 2007 (BST)
  - In my not-so-humble opinion, those all are even more unnecessarily confusing than either the traditional system or Sounomi's. Just my two cents. --Qwerty 05:39, 4 August 2007 (BST)
    - Oh, I agree. I just wanted to point out some other suggestions that were thrown about on the issue. ;) EspioKaos 14:46, 4 August 2007 (BST)
      - I mentioned that even they couldn't agree months ago. - Miraglyth 19:10, 10 August 2007 (BST)
        At least we'll finally have a standard set come the end of tomorrow. Moving in the right direction and all, right? ;) EspioKaos 19:12, 10 August 2007 (BST)

Template Nonsense

I just made a metric ass-load of templates for use on weapon pages. This should make them much easier to put together, requiring less memorization of the confusing color-codes (or alt-tabbing to another, completed, article's edit page, which is just as silly), less typing for the image tags, and general happiness through technology. Check Rifles, it works out the same, and saved a bunch of text. Not going to add it to the style manual until I garner praise and cookies from you all though. --Beatrixkiddo 04:48, 1 August 2007 (BST)
- Lolk after some fun times, I've found out that A) Templates only work if they are one-per-cell. B) Multiple Templates in the headers of tables don't get along and C) Template descriptions don't work so well with the color-code templates. Other than that, have fun with them! --Beatrixkiddo 05:31, 1 August 2007 (BST)
  - Excellent work! I don't see why these won't be approved, but I'll wait for more feedback before adding them in. (Or, I could add them in with the pending title until it's made official.) EspioKaos 01:57, 2 August 2007 (BST)

Am I just blind, or what?

If one of these weapons is not yet released in the Japanese version of PSU, use the code style="background:#fff2f2" in the row divider above it (|-).

I cannot tell the difference between this color and pure white, at all. It's not really important, I guess, but maybe we should try a slightly darker tone? --Qwerty 06:06, 1 August 2007 (BST)
- It should appear as a faint red. This should actually be changed to the red used in the new color-coding table I added. (style="background:#FFAAAA") Of course, I need to verify first that this is the standard. EspioKaos 01:54, 2 August 2007 (BST)
  - Querty, I noticed in your weapons page proposal that you chose very dark grey colors for your tables, where the "wikitable" format already has a significant division of color; maybe your monitor's brightness is set too high? F Gattaca 22:00, 2 August 2007 (BST)
    - Lolya. My brightness is set at 100, and contrast at 28, but my monitor color always seems off if I change it. But I yeah, I suspect that is what's going on. --Qwerty 23:02, 2 August 2007 (BST)
    - Oh, wow. I mean, wow. I played around with some settings on my monitor and driver. Honest to God, I never knew the wikitable class had background colors pre-assigned, they always showed up as pure white on my screen. With that in mind, I think I need to change my Weapon Template, as those colors really are too dark. --Qwerty 00:37, 3 August 2007 (BST)

Voting on pending issues of style

OK, we're getting an excellent start on this by getting a standard established for the PSUPedia. Now all we need to do is vote on a few subjects at hand (the pending issues in the manual) to move even further. So, how should we handle voting? Maybe leave it open for a set period of time (one week?) and then go with the decision from there? Or maybe we should just close the polls once we get votes from everyone participating in the creation of the manual? Other ideas? EspioKaos 04:49, 3 August 2007 (BST)
- I'd say, set a deadline of one week to vote, and mention it on the frontpage so any visitors can come and vote. - Mewn 10:42, 3 August 2007 (BST)
  - OK. When I put it on the front page, would a little blurb in bold below the welcome line but before the actual paragraph be good? (Like where the mention of our Super Holy Light week and the addition of Her Secret Mission was located.) I can just link to this page from there. EspioKaos 03:30, 4 August 2007 (BST)
  - Yeah, that sounds good, people will have to know what they're voting on and it might help grab their attention. - Mewn 10:27, 4 August 2007 (BST)
  - I think there have been wiki extensions emulating polls floating around, if you want. In fact, I think I there was one installed earlier actually... Probably got killed during all the transfers and server moves and whatnot. - Tycho 17:53, 6 August 2007 (BST)
  - Er, actually... >_>
    - Ah, cool. I'll look into the proper markup for writing a poll (since it's not detailed there, unless I just missed it) and see if we can use it for the next one we need. Thanks for the tip! EspioKaos 19:09, 7 August 2007 (BST)

Weapon listing table

And now we have a complete proposal for the tables used to list weapons. Really, the only thing that's changed is the addition of the column used to identify items exclusive to the expansion (thanks for the icons, F Gattaca and Qwerty!).

Rank	Name	Maker	PP	Att.	Acc.	Req.	Ver.	Comments
1★	Sample		230	72	42	27	Template:PSU-version	--
	Samplesou		260	64	38	29	Template:PSU-version	--
	Shigga Sample		200	76	45	30	Template:PSU-version	Drop: Sample Monster Lv01~09
Rank	Name	Maker	PP	Att.	Acc.	Req.	Ver.	Comments
4★	Sample Mk. 2		333	302	149	164	Template:AotI-version	--
6★	Sample Mk. 3		356	450	212	266	Template:PSU-version	--
6★	Samplesou Mk. 2		403	402	189	281	Template:AotI-version	--
Rank	Name	Maker	PP	Att.	Acc.	Req.	Ver.	Comments
7★	Shigga Sample Mk. 2		340	553	253	325	Template:PSU-version	Drop: Sample Monster Lv80~99
Rank	Name	Maker	PP	Att.	Acc.	Req.	Ver.	Comments
10★	Shigga Sample Mk. 3		380	732	373	488	Template:PSU-version	Drop: Sample Monster Lv100+
12★	Shigga Samplec		300	625	618	617	Template:PSU-version	Still unreleased in JP.

Opinions? EspioKaos 20:43, 14 August 2007 (BST)

- Quick adjustment. Changed the Att. and Acc. columns to ATP and ATA. EspioKaos 20:54, 14 August 2007 (BST)
  - I'm so damn indecisive. Changed it back since the in-game windows list weapon stats by Att., Acc., Tech., etc. EspioKaos 19:31, 15 August 2007 (BST)
    - Good thing, too. - Miraglyth 18:27, 16 August 2007 (BST)
      - Implying something? EspioKaos 20:11, 16 August 2007 (BST)
        That's what they are in the game, is all. - Miraglyth 05:04, 18 August 2007 (BST)
    - Something possessed me today to work on updating these tables throughout the site. It's actually been really fun, too. Anyway, just wanted to say that if the final outcome of the vote on this design changes anything, I will personally go through and make any necessary adjustments since I've begun implementation ahead of schedule. EspioKaos 00:47, 16 August 2007 (BST)

Weapon template standard proposal

Qwerty, Beatrix and myself have come to a consensus on which weapon template we prefer: this one. Any objections? The whole decision process on this matter is taking a lot longer than we'd hoped, so we're just trying to speed things along. EspioKaos 19:25, 12 August 2007 (BST)
Yes, this particular issue has taken too long. I have no particular objections. If there is enough objection a vote will have to be set up, but I don't forsee that. - Mewn 19:32, 12 August 2007 (BST)
Just one tiny thing. 'Base rate' is mostly useless information; I'd rather see the chance it has on a pure PM. Perhaps both but people don't usually synth guns on armor PMs so... Au+ 21:43, 14 August 2007 (BST)
- Maybe we could detail increased rates later in each article? Or, an expansion of the synthesis article could include pure and hybrid rates. EspioKaos 03:38, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Weapon table revision

Since our S-rank listing is using a darker red to point out items that have not been released in any version of the game, shouldn't our new weapon table do the same? Or is there a reason that it uses a lighter shade of red? EspioKaos 03:49, 4 August 2007 (BST)
- I believe the notion was that it was too dark/bold for general use in other temples but let me mess around with it, and see how it looks. --Qwerty 05:40, 4 August 2007 (BST)
  - Any updates on this end? ;) EspioKaos 19:14, 7 August 2007 (BST)
  - Yeah, I was wondering this myself. The sooner finalized templates can be shown by the both of you, the sooner we can vote on them and institute a standard. Oh, by the way, something neither of you seem to have considered at the moment is AoI - if you are working on your templates at all you might want to add a place to put which versions of the game an item is available on, for future use. - Mewn 21:23, 7 August 2007 (BST)
    - Perhaps we can make the text for the item name yellow...while still retaining it as a link to its own article. Not sure if this is possible, or if it'd even look good though. But a seperate coloumn would probably be a lot easier anyways. - Saiffy 21:36, 7 August 2007 (BST)
    - I'll see if I can mess around with the tables some to add a column for AotI-exclusive items. Same for the individual item templates. On that, I'm trying to come up with some ideas for templates on other non-weapon stuff like traps, materials and consumables. I'll try to get some things done on that as soon as possible. EspioKaos 21:59, 7 August 2007 (BST)
    - OK, here we go. I quickly added in a column before the comments section to display which version of the game an item is from. As I state in my notes there, I think the italics look a little silly, but I don't want to make a double-standard since game titles are supposed to be italicized anyway. Perhaps we could use a small icon similar to the manufacturer icons? EspioKaos 00:41, 8 August 2007 (BST)
    - For tables, I suggest we do use something like a very pale yellow as Saiffy suggested, or put in the extra column as Espio did. Alternatively, we could use a very small icon to denote AotI-only things in tables and lists. For articles addressing a bunch of AotI-only content, I suggest we just use something like below. --Qwerty 06:16, 8 August 2007 (BST)
    - Me again. Here is an example of two possible ways to denote an AotI item/quest/whatever in tabular/list form. As noted there, I'm more so fond of the little icon (), as it can be more widely applied. Also, too many varying colors in a table is both hard to remember and confusing to the lay reader. Anyway, comments plx. --Qwerty 06:50, 8 August 2007 (BST)
    - I prefer the column directly stating PSU or AoI, it'd be good for any future expansions, and the colour has the flaw of not telling us if the item is released or not. - Mewn 11:14, 8 August 2007 (BST)
Check this out. I opted for a scaled down version of the Illuminus logo as opposed to the exclamation point from the beta. I just like it better. ;) Now we'll need a logo for just the base game. EspioKaos 20:07, 8 August 2007 (BST)
- Hey, I can do pixel art; if I make a knockoff logo based on the PSU icon and the AoI icon, would those work? F Gattaca 08:13, 10 August 2007 (BST)
  - No real point; we might as well just shrink the official logo, no one seems to care. --Qwerty 18:54, 10 August 2007 (BST)
    - Yeah, the official logo shrunk down will work just fine. Quicker, too. ;) EspioKaos 19:18, 10 August 2007 (BST)
      - I suppose. I figured transparent pixel art icons would have looked better alongside the manufacturer icons, which have transparent backgrounds themselves. F Gattaca 03:50, 11 August 2007 (BST)
        What about vector art like the manufacturer icons? (I think it's called vector art.) If someone could do that with the Illuminus logo, we could scale it up and down without distortion so it could be used for multiple purposes. EspioKaos 15:38, 11 August 2007 (BST)
        That'd be better, since the manufacturer logos are also made from vector graphics, although they're .png files. Following the same pattern, I could do that with Flash and make a big vector .png of the logos--but if you're thinking about that .svg stuff, I've no clue how those vector graphics work. I've only seen them used on Wikipedia ... F Gattaca 19:37, 11 August 2007 (BST)
        PNG would be great. Give it a shot, if you don't mind. :) EspioKaos 19:50, 11 August 2007 (BST)
I just finished a rough design of the Kazarod page. Of course, we still need a picture to add to the upper right, but this is what I think individual weapon pages should look like. (I still need to add drop info in, however. Not sure if I want to do it as text or a table...) EspioKaos 16:58, 12 August 2007 (BST)
- I guess we'll need to do a referendum on the weapon pages. That's three style propositions now, heh!
  
  Anyway, I finally found the time to work on the vector graphics version of the AoI logo. Tell me what you think:
  
  You can view the full size (250x250) here. F Gattaca 21:09, 13 August 2007 (BST)
  - Perfect! :D What program do you use for this? I'd kind of like to try my hand at creating some logos like this for other in-game icons such as status effects and materials. EspioKaos 21:22, 13 August 2007 (BST)
    - I personally used Flash for this, using its Export Image feature to turn my working movie into a still image .png file. There's some dedicated vector graphics programs out there, but I've found Flash can handle many of the same things. F Gattaca 21:30, 13 August 2007 (BST)

Individual item pages

This format seems to be going over very well considering that Beatrix, myself and a few others have been faithfully using it over the past few days as we add new articles to the wiki. Considering that, I assume it could more or less be a set standard, but I'd still like to see if anyone has any opinions on the style that maybe they've just kept to themselves. A few things on it, though:

I've opted for a more bold set of colors for the star rating as the ones selected for the table cell backgrounds seemed a little too light against the normal white background. The green star was especially difficult to see.
I'd ultimately like to set up a number of more organized categories, such as what we're doing now with these small articles, as opposed to the 500+ categories we have now that split everything up into smaller and smaller pieces. I mentioned this at Raffon Field Base, but I'd like to say it here, too. I really think we need to clear out a ton of the unnecessary categories.

Anyway, I think that's it. Comments, suggestions? EspioKaos 18:31, 11 August 2007 (BST)

- Well, for the star rating, I guess you could try a wikitable thing to get a darker background. Something like:

{| class=wikitable | style="background:#A7A7A7" | <font color=blue>★★★<font color=cyan>★★★<font color=lightgreen>★★★<font color=gold>★★★ |}

Which gives:

★★★★★★★★★★★★

As for the categories, they were originally intended to be there because we can't really get the advanced search functions a more conventional database can have and this was a work-around. They've never been used really and are archaic, they're also intrinsically tied with the old, broken template system. They should be deleted so we can have cleaner categories. Special List pages can be set up if necessary. - Mewn 20:21, 11 August 2007 (BST)

I am pro special list page. ;) We could use that to sort out which categories to keep and which to axe. EspioKaos 04:40, 12 August 2007 (BST)
- - I personally think the way Espio is doing them looks fine, and the grayish background table for the stars would just look out of place. I'm also curious if the board table I used on my sample weapon page might look better for the individual item pages as well, rather than the textual board and ingredient description. The colored star rarity would also fit in well with my weapon page, if we choose to do that one. --Qwerty 01:03, 12 August 2007 (BST)
    - Create an example of what you have in mind and we can judge from there. :) EspioKaos 04:40, 12 August 2007 (BST)
      - Nothing too fancy, just a simple little table, easy to read and standardized. Here be the example. My pricing table could be thrown in too, but I think that might be a bit much. Also, for my sample weapon page, I could just put the color-coded stars below the item description as on the item pages, or possibly in the weapon name title line (with reduced text-size, obviously). --Qwerty 07:03, 12 August 2007 (BST)
        Yeah, the pricing table would probably be too much, but the synthesis table looks great there. EspioKaos 15:01, 12 August 2007 (BST)

As an aside, it's worth standardizing exactly what types of items are to use this style - obviously synthesis materials and traps use it, but I also assume that consumables, buff items, room goods, redecoration tickets, boards which don't particularly belong to another page (e.g. conversion boards), PA Disks and Clothes/Parts will also use this standard? - Mewn 20:40, 12 August 2007 (BST)
- Yeah, that sounds about right. I plan on doing some more item pages later today, possibly finishing off the synthesis materials section. In the meantime, however, I'm going to head off to the gym for a bit while I've got a chance. (There are weights to be lifted there, and it just so happens that I'm the only one who can lift them. :D) While I'm there, I'll be going over these things in my head. EspioKaos 20:58, 12 August 2007 (BST)

Closed polls

Voting has ended for the following topics.

VOTE: Abbreviations

So we can set a standard Guardian type abbreviation system for use at the PSUPedia, we're taking a vote on what the users and contributors would like to have implemented. Our two choices are the JP Wiki version and Sounomi's version. For those who might not know, here are how the two sets of abbreviations compare:

Guardian Type	JP Wiki Abbr.	Sounomi Abbr.
Hunter	HU	HU
Ranger	RA	RA
Force	FO	FO
Fighgunner	FG	FI
Wartecher	WT	WT
Guntecher	GT	GT
Fortefighter	fF	FF
Fortegunner	fG	FG
Fortetecher	fT	FT
Protranser	PT	PT
(Acrofighter)	aF	AF
(Acrotecher)	aT	AT

Please post your vote (and if you want, your reasoning) on this issue in this section. Voting will be open for one week from today, so you have until 12:00a.m. CST Sunday, August 12 until all votes are tallied and an official decision is made. EspioKaos 15:13, 4 August 2007 (BST)

Sounomi: I vote we use Sounomi's abbreviation set. Even though the JP Wiki's set has been used longer, Sounomi's set solves the issue of confusion some have had over fG/FG, which is Fighgunner and which is Fortegunner. Also, I just think it looks nicer than having random lowercase letters in certain abbreviations. (I still don't understand why the JP Wiki users decided to give the Acro-types a lowercase a.) One other thing, I've seen a few people complain that the PSUPedia seems to be a rip-off of the JP Wiki, so by using an abbreviation set that didn't originate from there, it might help set apart even further. EspioKaos 15:13, 4 August 2007 (BST)
JP-Wiki: I vote we use the JP-Wiki set. We've been using this for a while now and I think most people can grasp the difference between fG and FG (the confusion tends to come mostly from people on forums who don't capitalize, and even then it can usually be worked out from context). As an aside, for ease of reading, I suggest putting either JP-Wiki or Sounomi at the start of our comments. - Mewn 16:50, 4 August 2007 (BST)
Sounomi. --Beatrixkiddo 17:14, 4 August 2007 (BST)
JP-Wiki: For all the reasons I said below. However, I'd really prefer JP-Wiki style, but with capital As for the Acro classes. --Qwerty 18:04, 4 August 2007 (BST)
Sounomi. - Saiffy 18:35, 4 August 2007 (BST)
Sounomi, also for reasons I stated below (and what's the point of a mixed-case abbreviation for the Acro classes?). EpisoKaos also raises some valid points about differentiating PSUPedia from the JP Wiki. F Gattaca 20:13, 4 August 2007 (BST)
Sounomi, less ambiguity is better. Malice 23:23, 5 August 2007 (BST)
Sounomi probably. First things first: I don't see much of a reason to differentiate from PSU-wiki. Since the sites have a limited overlap in their target audiences, there shouldn't be a sense of competition. I'd rather have them credited for what they're worth to the international community than try to be 'better'. Anyway, anyone able to differentiate the old-style acronyms (these aren't abbreviations, btw) shouldn't have trouble with the new ones either. Since in Japanese the alphabet is mostly used for set acronyms rather than phonetically, they would have been less likely to get confused by them in the first place. If the amount of people that feels put off by the fG/FG confusion is significant, I feel the change is justified. - Tycho 17:03, 6 August 2007 (BST)
- I'm not too sure why the type terms are acroynms and not abbreviations. We're talking about type classifications formed from the shortening of the full word, after all. We do the same for titles like "Fr." for Father (clerical), "Dr." for Doctor, and so on. I thought acronyms only referred to words/terms created from letters taken a phrase or multiple words, like "LASER" from Light Amplified by Stimulated Emission of Radiation or "RADAR" from RAdio Detecting And Ranging ... or maybe even "PSU" from Phantasy Star Universe, "AMF" from Alliance Military Force, or "TTB" from Triplanetary Transportation Bureau (did I get that one right?).
  
  If the class types were not an entire word as they appear to be, I'd agree that they are acronyms, but ... F Gattaca 23:56, 6 August 2007 (BST)
Neither. I propose using Fo for forte Ac for acro and Fi for Figh. The difference between FoG and FiG is immediately obvious, no matter what standard you personally use. If you see only 'FG' you're still going to have to know which standard this place is using. Au+ 20:42, 6 August 2007 (BST)
Sounomi looks cleaner and less ambiguity. We don't have to follow the Japanese on EVERYTHING when it doesn't make sense to. Firehawke 01:54, 7 August 2007 (BST)
JP-Wiki: Makes more sense, only the base classes use the first 2 letters, why should an advanced class be stuck with that format as well? If Sounomi was simply meant to be unambiguous, it should have continued WA, GU and PR since those are unique as well. --JustTrio 15:36, 8 August 2007 (BST)
- You make a good point, however. Hunter, Ranger and Force are the classes from PSO, where they were called HU, RA and FO respectively. They aren't acronyms in the same sense as FI or WT, simply a shorthand version of it. But the JP-Wiki uses this too, so... - Saiffy 18:01, 8 August 2007 (BST)
Sounomi: It just makes sense. I actually agree with JustTrio and would have preferred GU, WA and PR (or PO) but the most important thing is getting rid of this Fighgunner/Fortegunner confusion which - like it or not - does exist. - Miraglyth 23:48, 8 August 2007 (BST)
JP-Wiki: JP wiki sounds like the best way, except for the new jobs. Sou-whoever for the 2 new classes. --Sasamichan 21:04, 9 August 2007 (BST)
Sounomi: This one gets my vote. I agree with trying to extinguish the confusion with Fighgunner/Fortegunner. The petition to vote was a great idea btw.--Renderingdragon 23:09, 9 August 2007 (BST)
JP-Wiki: Just because it's the style I'm used to using. :3 *In b4 "OWTF RANT U R SUPPOS 2 B ON VACATIONZ"* Fence
The voting period has ended and the score tallied. With nine votes, Sounomi's abbreviations will be the PSUPedia's new standard for type abbreviations. EspioKaos 06:50, 12 August 2007 (BST)

VOTE: Heading and sub-heading capitalization

We would like to set a standard for the capitalization of headings and sub-headings within individual articles at the PSUPedia. Please cast your vote on which of the following styles you prefer. Voting will be open from now until 12:00a.m. CST August 12.

Wikipedia Standard - The first letter of the first word and all proper nouns thereafter are capitalized, but everything else is lowercase.
APA Standard - Multiple variations all depending upon the heading type.
AJA Standard - Capitalize the first letter of the first word and all proper nouns, but apply no punctuation to the end of the heading.
MLA Standard - The first letter of each word is capitalized unless it is an article (a, an, the), a preposition (against, between, in, of, to) a conjunction (and, but, for, nor, or, so, yet') or the infinitive to.

If you know of any other standards that you are fond of, please feel free to cast a vote for them here, but be sure to give a source for examples and so forth. Voting on this will be open from now until 12:00a.m. CST August 12.

Wikipedia: I vote that we use the Wikipedia standard. I personally like how it looks, plus it's very simple and straightforward with minimal rules to follow. EspioKaos 15:46, 4 August 2007 (BST)
Wikipedia: I have to agree with the simplicity of the Wikipedia standard. Easy enough to follow. - Mewn 16:52, 4 August 2007 (BST)
Wikipedia. --Beatrixkiddo 17:14, 4 August 2007 (BST)
MLA:: Because it is what everything uses. Not capitalizing a noun in a title makes me :<. --Qwerty 18:12, 4 August 2007 (BST)
Wikipedia, because it's the simplest. I like MLA better, but it will be harder to follow consistently. Malice 23:21, 5 August 2007 (BST)
Wikipedia. - Tycho 17:14, 6 August 2007 (BST)
Abstain. I'm not sure if it's couth to cast a vote for two things. While I prefer a standard like that of the APA and MLA (with the MLA governing what to capitalize, and the APA governing which subheadings are capitalized where others are simply written like a sentence), Wikipedia has a strong precedent ... therefore I'll abstain. F Gattaca 23:56, 6 August 2007 (BST)
MLA: "Because it is what everything uses. Not capitalizing a noun in a title makes me :<." My thoughts exactly. Fence 15:41, 10 August 2007
MLA: Coincidentally, isn't "Manual of Style" breaking the Wikipedia and AJA standards? - Miraglyth 19:03, 11 August 2007 (BST)
- You're right. We'll begin making all necessary adjustments across the site once we have the results of this vote tonight. EspioKaos 20:04, 11 August 2007 (BST)
  - I wasn't necessarily making an argument about that. Just saying it's somewhat funny to see someone vote contrary to what they did. - Miraglyth 22:55, 11 August 2007 (BST)
    - Point. To be honest, before I began the manual of style here, I favored the MLA format, thus why the article is capitalized as it is. After I took a look over Wikipedia's style guide to get a little inspiration for ours, I realized that I liked their format more, and as such voted for it. EspioKaos 03:52, 12 August 2007 (BST)
With a vote of five, the Wikipedia standard for capitalization in headings has become the PSUPedia's new standard. EspioKaos 06:50, 12 August 2007 (BST)

VOTE: Weapon template

Before we go any further with weapon template implementation, let's make if official with a vote like we did with the other standards. Please cast your vote below by posting your choice in bold followed by your signature (and reasoning, if you want). Also, if anyone has another template that they would like to propose, please do so. In such an event, if your vote is swayed by a new entry, please feel free to update your vote.

Voting will be open from now until 12:00a.m. Tuesday, August 21. EspioKaos 00:22, 14 August 2007 (BST)

Qwerty's template - I prefer this template. The seperated tables allow for users to easily find what details they need. Natasha Milarose 19:29, 14 August 2007 (GMT +10)
Qwerty's template --Beatrixkiddo 00:46, 14 August 2007 (BST)
Qwerty's template - I like the general idea of this one, but now that I've seen it filled in on a few occasions, there are a few things that I don't like about it. For one, when shop and pricing information is put into its respective table, it begins to squash together the other tables, making them look, well, bloated. (Heh, for a lack of a better term.) I've been trying to come up with an alternative based on this design that solves this, but so far, I've had no luck. I'll keep trying, though, and submit my version if I'm successful. So, for now, my vote goes with this one. EspioKaos 01:05, 14 August 2007 (BST)
- I noticed the same thing on a few pages. It's due to "Unknown" taking up a lot more horizontal room than an actual price would, never fear. :P I was gonna change the unknown to "???" but didn't feel like messing with Q's pages. --Beatrixkiddo 01:48, 14 August 2007 (BST)
- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/beatrix_kiddo/Clip_10.jpg. In this example pic, sample prices are put in, making the boxes not get squished. --Beatrixkiddo 02:11, 14 August 2007 (BST)
- It only looks squished if you use something less than 1280 x 1024, which I figured was more or less standard. >_> --Qwerty 06:12, 14 August 2007 (BST)
  - Here's a pic showing how the template is fine at a higher resolution. --Qwerty 07:03, 14 August 2007 (BST)
- In other news, pricing can replace grinding in the second line, which in turn would move down to a third. Such a change could be easily implemented, but isn't necessary at 1280 x 1024 and above, and I'd imagine anyone playing PSU (at least on PC) can support that resolution (even if PSU has to run lower). Regardless, the change is easy to make if deemed necessary. --Qwerty 06:50, 14 August 2007 (BST)
  - I used to have my monitor set to 1280x1024, but for some reason, it kept squealing every once in a while. D: I finally just knocked it down by one spot and it stopped. I'm building a new computer very soon (well, as long as my new motherboard that should be arriving soon works this time), so once it's set up, I'll see if I can get away with a better resolution. I preferred 1280x1024, anyway. :) EspioKaos 15:35, 14 August 2007 (BST)
F Gattaca's template - I'm a lurker and often use the PSUpedia but never edited yet, so I guess throwing my say wouldn't hurt either. Qwerty's has some several advantages, namely being squashed to fit in half of a screen(in my resolution, at least) thus allowing on checking quickly the stats of a weapon, but I preffer F Gattaca's overall. It's breathier, spacier and feels more encyclopedic. Plenty of space and no risk of entries of squashing up into a mess. While it takes a screen, it's still pretty small and spacy. So, yeah, my vote's for F Gattaca's. Emryl Denjay 01:42, 14 August 2007 (BST)
F Gattaca's template - I prefer the non-squished look. Firehawke 01:53, 14 August 2007 (BST)
Qwerty's template. - Mewn 10:40, 14 August 2007 (BST)
Qwerty's template. 12 10:45, 14 August 2007 (BST)
Qwerty's template. Clover 12:15, 14 August (BST)
I can't say I'm a fan of the redundancy displayed with the "Rank" field of Qwerty's template. "Rarity" already has that covered, so couldn't we find a better use for that field? - Miraglyth 18:37, 14 August 2007 (BST)
- Well, the table looks really lopsided without it, so unless you can suggest something better to put there, then that's really a moot point. --Qwerty 18:53, 14 August 2007 (BST)
- :O I just realized a "version" (i.e. PAU/AoI) field would work well there. At any rate, stuff like that is easy to change in the template. --Qwerty 19:04, 14 August 2007 (BST)
  - A version field would be great. Of course, keep in mind that TECH weapons present a new problem. They only affect one stat (TP), thus leaving one stat box open (the one that was for ATA in striking and ranged weaponry). Any ideas? EspioKaos 19:07, 14 August 2007 (BST)
  - Wouldn't Rowspan 2 solve that particular problem? - Mewn 19:22, 14 August 2007 (BST)
    - Yeah, planning on just rowspan for the TP issue, but a version field would be nice once we get a vectored logo for regular PSU to match the AoI one. --Qwerty 19:25, 14 August 2007 (BST)
Qwerty's template. - Demon 04:06, 18 August 2007 (BST)
Qwerty's template. - I like the weapon stat box of F Gattaca's template more; but it being on the right of the page is a bit unnatural; I'd look for this info on the left side of the page. The rest of this template takes up a lot of space too, I have to scroll to see it all so I prefer Qwerty's template as they are right now. For me personally, I think F Gattaca's stat box on the left, and Qwerty's other boxes on the right would be ideal.
Also, there are 2 things missing from both of the templates:
1) Synth rate on a pure level 100 Partner Machinery. I do not really care what the synth rate of a Blackbull on an armor PM is.
2) PP regeneration. Some weapons, Kubara in particular, are different from the norm; I would like to see this one too. Au+ 13:22, 18 August 2007 (BST)
- Quick note on Qwerty's template. I think a few small modifications should be made to the code to take out some of the HTML and replace it with wikicode. Also, I'd like to suggest changing the wording of the second subcategory to something less wordy. (Stats, synthesis, grinding, etc. for example, instead of Stats, synthing, pricing, grinding and drops.) EspioKaos 17:55, 20 August 2007 (BST)

Qwerty's template is the winner. Before we begin mass-implementation, I'd like to make a few small modifications to the code, however, just to add wikicode in and take HTML out. Also, there are some color templates we could add in save more space. EspioKaos 12:40, 21 August 2007 (BST)

VOTE: Item template

Let's make it official on this one, too. Right now, I think the only proposal out there is mine, but I'd like to open up the floor once again in case anyone else has any ideas. If so, please submit your ideas! As with before, please cast your vote in bold followed by your signature.

EspioKaos' template
Other; please elaborate.

Voting will be open from now until 12:00a.m. Tuesday, August 21. EspioKaos 15:51, 14 August 2007 (BST)

EspioKaos' template EspioKaos 15:51, 14 August 2007 (BST)
EspioKaos' template. - Mewn 17:02, 14 August 2007 (BST)
EspioKaos' template --Qwerty 17:49, 14 August 2007 (BST)
EspioKaos' template - Bit of a no-brainer. But as with shop buy/sell stats, I'm not sure about the presence of PM feed stats. The star value and item type (e.g. Ingredient in above example) is already given, no? - Miraglyth 18:26, 14 August 2007 (BST)
- Yeah, I put that there as filler, but it's just kind of stuck. Other stuff could go in its place. EspioKaos 21:24, 14 August 2007 (BST)
  - Would definitely like to see discussion on that. We'd already determined for other tables that feed stats are best left to the Partner Machinery article. - Miraglyth 00:27, 16 August 2007 (BST)
    - Drop details (especially for rare materials) would be a good replacement for the feeding info. Do you think keeping synthesis uses is good? EspioKaos 00:32, 16 August 2007 (BST)

Seems to be unanimous. However, we still need to decide on what other info to add to item pages. We can start a separate discussion for that. EspioKaos 12:40, 21 August 2007 (BST)

VOTE: Color-coding

Another one to get out there and finalize. At the moment, the only discrepancy I've come across with the color-coding system is in the shade of red used to identify an item that has not been officially released. In the current tables, it's of a lighter shade than what has been proposed. As before, if anyone has another suggestion, please post it. In the meantime, cast your vote in bold followed by your signature.

Color proposal #1
Color proposal #2 - The only change is in the shade of red.
Other; please elaborate.

Voting will be open from now until 12:00a.m. Tuesday, August 21. EspioKaos 15:59, 14 August 2007 (BST)

Color proposal #1 EspioKaos 15:59, 14 August 2007 (BST)
Colour proposal #1. - Mewn 17:02, 14 August 2007 (BST)
Color proposal #1 --Qwerty 17:49, 14 August 2007 (BST)
Colour proposal #1: Edit - Ah, I see what's being voted on here. Actually I used the lighter red initially because I found reds that were much deeper stole too much attention from the text. It's arguably too pale now, but I didn't expect availability to be too important a detail. In any case, #aaccff and #ffaaaa can of course be shortened to #acf and #faa - Miraglyth 18:20, 14 August 2007 (BST)

With a unanimous vote, color proposal #1 wins. EspioKaos 12:40, 21 August 2007 (BST)

VOTE: Main weapon listing table

And another one. (One of these days I'll take the time to use the actual poll tags, but in the meantime, this will work.) As with some of the previous polls, this one is more or less a yea or nay kind of thing. I haven't gotten any negative opinions on this layout after making a few discussed modifications, but I want to make its standardization official. As before, bold you choice and follow it up with your signature. If you vote other, please submit your own proposal. If a new proposal is made and it sways your vote, please feel free to update accordingly.

Proposal #1
Other; please elaborate.

Voting will be open from now until 12:00a.m. Wednesday, August 22. EspioKaos 00:21, 16 August 2007 (BST)

Proposal #1 EspioKaos 00:21, 16 August 2007 (BST)
Proposal #1. - Mewn 11:08, 16 August 2007 (BST)
Proposal #1: - For once, no real objections. But perhaps the "JP/unavailable" colours could do with a slight bleaching. - Miraglyth 18:30, 16 August 2007 (BST)
- Perhaps so. I've been changing these to color templates in the tables over the past few days, so if/when we do change anything, it will only require one simple edit as opposed to some ridiculously large number of them. ;) EspioKaos 20:10, 16 August 2007 (BST)
  - True, but people will need to agree on it nontheless, which is proving a time-consuming process! - Miraglyth 17:25, 17 August 2007 (BST)

Following the vote, the layout of proposal #1 stands. EspioKaos 15:38, 22 August 2007 (BST)

VOTE: Drop templates

Poll will close February 29 at 12:00a.m. (CST)
Kietrinia has devised an alternate method of utilizing enemy and area drop templates. This method consists of one base template which contains all of an enemy or area's special and level drops instead of one template per level tier per enemy/area. (See Template:Dark Falz.) When used in a drop table, we would type the normal template code, in this case {{Dark Falz}}, then insert a vertical pipe after the enemy name followed by the level range or type of drop. So, to display the special drops and then the LV20-29 range for a Delp Slami, we would use {{Delp Slami | special}} and {{Delp Slami | 20}}. Before we begin voting, I'd like to give Kit the floor to further explain this just in case I've missed something. Once voting has begun, please answer with yes or no (in bold) followed by your reasoning and then your signature. - EspioKaos 11:26, 21 February 2008 (CST)

You pretty much got it all. Instead of having one template for each rank, we'll have one that has all ranks with a variable we can specify. Anyone who's curious about all the neat lil things we can do with parser functions should have a look at the Parser Functions page at Meta to see all the neat toys we have at our disposal and all the automation we can add to our templates. Implementing the new style will take time, but it'll clean out the space this wiki uses on the database, and will make adding enemy drop lists more intuitive. Isn't automation fun? ^-^
--Kit 11:49, 21 February 2008 (CST)

No. I see no particular reason to change them, and it would just create extra work in reworking old templates. Furthermore, this automation/parser stuff is way beyond the scope of understanding for myself, most other staff here, and certainly the average user. If we had more people here who were comfortable/experienced with coding and stuff, then it would be fine, but as it is, most people here know very little about it, and I don't think we have any reason to worry about database size. In summary, I think it would be unnecessarily confusing for not only average contributors (discouraging them from adding their input), but also for most of the staff. --Qwerty 15:37, 21 February 2008 (CST)

Yes. I think that making the templates more automated is a good idea but I don't think we have to re-work all of the old templates immediately. Regarding complexity: as far as using the templates, neither method is really more complex than the other. Creating the templates, is certainly more complex but I think if the techniques are well documented it could be fairly easy to create new templates from the existing ones. One last note, personally, I do have programming experience but have been reluctant to make too many changes for fear of stepping on someone's feet. Propagandist 23:38, 21 February 2008 (CST)
- Yay for programming experience! *high fives and/or hugs fellow geek* :D --Kit 09:37, 22 February 2008 (CST)
No. I've been thinking quite a bit on this over the past few days and I finally came to my decision. Even though it's an excellent idea and nice use of parser functions, I'd rather we spend the time the conversion would take on something of a higher priority. However, I have nothing against the use of parsers in future templates. In fact, I recently attempted to play around with them and they don't seem too terribly difficult to use. (I think my first uses didn't work since I only had a default value set without any other options. Of course, where I was using them wasn't ideal since it wasn't for an options type of template, more of a simple yes or no thing.) - EspioKaos 19:06, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Yes. Having read the comments of Qwerty and Espio I would have to agree that it's not high on the priority list, and that a confusing/difficult code would make this place inaccessible to the regular editor. That said, having seen the template and checking out the Help:ParserFunctions page, the "switch" function seems simple enough to not go into that. I still doubt it's worth a high spot on the priority list, but it's a lot more concise than making and referencing 10+ templates per enemy. - Miraglyth 05:53, 24 February 2008 (CST)

Yes. The parser functions in this case are a lot simpler than they look, and I can't think of any good reason not to use them, at the very least for future articles. The main obstacle in this case seems to be the work involved in converting the existing templates and the articles that use them, but compared to some of the existing projects (like template conversions for the existing weapon pages, or missing pages in general) this seems like an easy enough endeavor. Just don't make me do it.... - Sekani 14:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)

Yes. I've been told that I'm actually allowed to vote in this, so, I vote yes...but with conditions. Alot of people are worried about the amount of time it'd take to convert the old templates. Really, if someone could convert one every other day, it'd be done before we realized it. Letting people convert them would also allow them to get used to the #switch statement code, and possibly develop future ideas for using the parser functions in future template. We don't have to make a huge project out of conversion, but I'd like to see future drop templates created in this fashion. Of course, if anyone gets lost, we've lots of people on here who can help figure it out, and we have a working example at Template: Dark Falz that anyone can look at. :)
--Kit 09:36, 25 February 2008 (CST)
- Just for kicks, I messed around with the parser for Template:Karl F. Howzer. It really is pretty easy, and the conversion was relatively quick. I guess when I first saw this, it just looked like a lot since I wasn't familiar at all with the function. Now that I've taken a little time to learn the basics of it, I can see myself putting this to use quite a bit in the future. - EspioKaos 10:54, 25 February 2008 (CST)
With the end of this poll, the majority are in favor of the new drop template style. Commence conversion! - EspioKaos 08:59, 29 February 2008 (CST)

VOTE: Unit article template

Please cast your vote on which of the following designs you prefer for individual unit articles. Voting will be open until 12:00a.m. CST Tuesday, September 18. Also, if you have a design of your own, please feel free to submit it for voting. When casting your vote, remember to highlight your choice in bold print and follow it up with your signature.

Proposal #1

Proposal #2

Proposal #2 - Basically, it's the same thing as the first proposal, however open space has been condensed in the stats table (at the suggestion of Beatrix) and the redundant unit descriptor in the pricing table has been removed. EspioKaos 00:39, 11 September 2007 (BST)
Proposal #2 - Definitely. I was more than half asleep when I made the Orpad/Guard one. --Qwerty 00:42, 11 September 2007 (BST)
Proposal #2 - Mewn 01:05, 11 September 2007 (BST)
Proposal #2: - This is a bit of a joke. - Miraglyth 02:50, 11 September 2007 (BST)
- Heh, well I just wanted to make it official. Also, it leaves the floor open for suggestions. Of course, whether or not we see anything else is a different story. To be honest, though, maybe a vote isn't necessary on all aspects of standardization. Perhaps just the ones where multiple, independently unique ideas are presented should be voted on? EspioKaos 03:10, 11 September 2007 (BST)
- Neither of these are complete templates if they don't offer all of the possible fields. Unless you are just talking about how it should look and not creating an actual template (potentially for each type of unit), these won't work because they don't have fields for each of the possible boosts (END/ATA/ATP/EVA/DFP/TECH/MENT). --JustTrio 15:15, 14 September 2007 (BST)
- I doubt these are actual templates in the sense of there being a Template:Unit or whatever. It's just how it should look, and manually editing it for the appropriate stat boosts is easy, and better than having every stat for every unit when clearly individual units don't boost even half of them. - Mewn 15:22, 14 September 2007 (BST)
  - Exactly. Each type of unit will have the appropriate fields in its article. EspioKaos 15:37, 14 September 2007 (BST)
Proposal #2 - Any reason we aren't creating templates any more? --JustTrio 11:18, 16 September 2007 (BST)
- There's no reason we can't, as can be seen by the recently created enemy profile template. It would be a great time-saver. Personally, I just need to learn how to make the larger templates. XD EspioKaos 16:21, 16 September 2007 (BST)
With the close of the poll, proposal #2 is the new standard. - EspioKaos 12:14, 18 September 2007 (BST)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-To help save space, older discussions and polls from the [http://psupedia.info/The_PSUPedia_talk:Manual_of_style manual of style talk page] will be archived here.
+To help save space, older discussions and polls from the [[The_PSUPedia_talk:Manual_of_style|manual of style talk page]] will be archived here.
+== New enemy article layout ==
+I know we'd previously decided on an enemy article layout, but I've since done some tweaking to it, removing unnecessary information while adding in useful stuff from the ''Perfect Bible'' and prettifying the basic infobox and stat table.  It can be seen [[User:EspioKaos/Sandbox/Bel_Pannon|here]].  Any suggestions or objections? - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 09:23, 11 January 2008 (CST)
+== Mission page proposal ==
+* Making this my official proposal for our new mission articles.  [[User:EspioKaos/Sandbox|Behold]]!  I do believe I've got everything tweaked just the way I want it.  If anyone else has suggestions or ideas of their own for a similar page, please don't keep it to yourself!  Create a new page and submit it here; otherwise I'd like to see us get to work on creating mission articles with this template as soon as possible. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 23:07, 4 November 2007 (CST)
+* Holy cow. I love this. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 02:54, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+** Thanks, Mira!  :) - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 06:35, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+* Glad I could help on it, I still think i like the mission info box with cellspacing set to zero though just so it looks like the wikitable. -- [[User:KyTin|KyTin]] 04:10, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+* Which is still being used on [[Planet's Scar]] don't know if I made the change on the sandbox or there now that I think about it lol. -- [[User:KyTin|KyTin]] 04:14, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+** Yeah, the infobox's cell spacing finally started to look fine to me.  Besides, when it was made to look like the other tables, any text outside of the box ran right up to the side without leaving any space, and I just thought it looked a little sloppy.  I still don't know why the text does that on the zero-cell-spaced one.  XD - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 06:35, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+* A lot like my old page at http://psupedia.info/User:Au/Sandbox that I never got around to complete or propose or anything. Glad you did! My comments. First, I would like the map pattern info to be on these pages too (could templatize these like the drops and have them both on the rare monster page and on the missions). Second, monster counts are nice too if available. Third, the 'Available ranks' field in the mission info box is not needed since you can get that info from the 'Mission requirements and rewards' section on the same screen, it's duplicate info. Fourth, I think the colors in the mission requirements box are ugly. Red for unavailable ranks is fine but the blue hurts my eyes. Rest looks good!
+** Keep in mind that the blue background (likewise, the red) is completely temporary, as the blue will be taken away when the English version of the game receives that particular mission.  Just like with the weapon/line shield tables where a currently-Japanese-only item hasn't made its way to us yet.  I'd considered adding the spawn charts to the article, but I was afraid I might be throwing too much stuff in there.  XD  That's why I opted for a link to that particular mission's spawn chart at the top of the page. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 11:11, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+* The running text is a quick fix set cellspacing 0 on the main area then on the subs where the text is set it to 1-3 and problem solved. Let me know if you need any help with that i can show you what it will look like on the one that has it that way still. -- [[User:KyTin|KyTin]] 10:38, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+** Feel free to update that one like that, or if you want, you can copy-paste the code into a sandbox of your own to play around with and show us any adjustments you'd like to make.  To be honest, though, I've actually become quite attached to the style I've got now.  XD - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 11:11, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+** The template looks great to me, very readable, useful data when filled in etc. and any improvements can be made over time anyway. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 11:47, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+* I've updated my [[Grove of Fanatics]] article to include a (blank) rare spawn chart and to remove a little redundant information.  Thoughts? - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 11:48, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+** Spawn information is exactly one of the things why I would want to look at a mission page, so I like it. One thingy though, I wouldn't name it a 'rare spawn chart' but just 'spawn chart'; all map information is interesting sometimes not just the rare ones. [[User:Au+|Au+]] 12:13, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+*** Ah, good point.  I'll fix that. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 12:14, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+** Perhaps a place for enemy counts would be useful as well.  Though I imagine it wouldn't be easy to get the info.[[User:Propagandist|Propagandist]] 13:30, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+*** OK, I've added it to the Grove article.  Provided we have people willing to get counts on enemies, it shouldn't be too difficult, but exactly how useful is it?  I mean, I can think of an example of wanting a certain item that drops from one enemy, so I'd want to find the mission with the most spawns of that one enemy to increase my chances of it dropping.  But, otherwise I don't know. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 14:01, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+* Random thought what about the mission with variable exp such as rainbow beast S2. -- [[User:KyTin|KyTin]] 15:18, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+** D:  It has variable EXP?  I hadn't noticed.  Can you elaborate on that for me?  ;) - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 15:20, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+** I've never heard of variable EXP - EXP is static and depends on the monster, its level, and whether it has sword/shield/crown/whatever. If, as I'm guessing, you're referring to lower levels getting less EXP - there's actually an EXP penalty for killing monsters 31 levels or more above your level. Kinda stupid if you ask me, that's what level requirements are supposed to be for, but eh. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 15:34, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+***We had 6 people in the party running there the level req is 65 i think  our party was levels 65-95. We had at least 3 different exp numbers possible more, I guess it could be from the penalty. The monsters there i think are level 100 I think so not sure how the penalty works out 100%. -- [[User:KyTin|KyTin]] 16:21, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+***Like I said, the penalty applies if the monsters are 31 or more levels above your character (might be 30 actually, I'm not quite sure). Anyone in your party who was level 65-69/70 would receive less EXP from defeating Lv100 monsters than higher levels would, explaining the different EXP numbers. It's a sliding scale as well, a 65 would receive less EXP than a 69 would. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 16:24, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+* OK, so I think I'm just going to go ahead and start implementing the new design into mission pages that we need.  I'm going to leave the counts table out, however, until we decide on its necessity or get them all created.  If we decide that they would be good to have, we'll just add them in later.  I will be leaving much of the EXP/MP/Meseta/drop/spawn info in the tables blank because (01) I'd like to get these templates set up quickly and (02) a lot of this data will be changing in next week's update anyway. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 14:03, 7 November 2007 (CST)
+==Star icons==
+* Following on from the previous icon suggestions, since I have AoI and should be able to do it - instead of something like {{10 stars}} would it be better to take images directly from the game and use them for the star rarities? I find that a better idea because the 10-12* and 13-15* colours in particular do not go well with a white background. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 16:16, 4 October 2007 (BST)
+** The stars taken from the game take up a lot more space; and might also prove to be tricky to get right since they're anti-aliased. We may be better off with hand-drawn stars; could just grab the ones we have now and draw a black border around them or so. [[User:Au+|Au+]] 18:37, 4 October 2007 (BST)
+*** Black borders sound ugleh. How well do the game rips shrink? That definitely sound preferable if done right. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 18:49, 4 October 2007 (BST)
+* Hey, Mewn?  Let's give it a shot.  When you get a chance, could you upload one star of each color?  We can turn them into templates to see how they look and go from there.  ;) - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 13:03, 4 November 2007 (CST)
+* Thanks to Mewn, we now have our new batch of star icons.  (See [[Alteratsu Cauda]] for an example of their use.)  Anyone have any objections to templatizing them and putting them to use across the site? - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 23:08, 4 November 2007 (CST)
+* Seems like there are no real objections. I'll do the templates. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 15:35, 5 November 2007 (CST)
+* I know this is a little late but if anyone is interested I'll try my hand at making a set of star icons that match the rips as closely as possible.[[User:Propagandist|Propagandist]] 00:47, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+** Here is what I came up with. [[Image:ExampleStars.png]] Each star is currently 18px square.  Let me know if there are any changes to be made.  I made the background transparent so we don't get the grey background.  If you like them, I'll split them into separate star graphics for each color.  On another somewhat related note, I was thinking about trying to get the 13-15 stars to animate similarly to the way the do in the game (of course I haven't actually seen what that looks like).  Any thoughts on that? [[User:Propagandist|Propagandist]] 03:27, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+** I updated the star graphic so they are 16px square.  Let me know if they look okay.[[User:Propagandist|Propagandist]] 14:23, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+*** Perfect! - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 14:28, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+** I uploaded the final versions of the stars.  I did one star per file so we can assemble them using templates.[[User:Propagandist|Propagandist]] 14:12, 7 November 2007 (CST)
+*** Thanks!  They've been templatized.  :D - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 14:35, 7 November 2007 (CST)
+* I can't say I'm a fan of rectangular grey blocks. Otherwise, lookin' fine. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 02:53, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+* Excellent, Propagandist!  Love the idea of the stars from 13-15 being animated, too.  ;)  The only suggestion I can make would be to maybe scale these down just a little bit, probably to about the size of the stars we're using now.  The images now are 18px tall, but when I cropped them, I left 1px of gray space on all sides, so the stars are only 16px tall. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 06:32, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+* They do look really good. I wanted to get rid of the grey background myself but I don't really have the talent to do it, not being particularly graphics-savvy. The idea of the 13th-15th stars being animated is cool as well, from memory they glow from a golden-browny colour to light cream (almost white), but it might be better to wait until AoI is released so you can see for yourself. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 11:43, 6 November 2007 (CST)
+==Element colours==
+* Similar to below suggestion, why not standardise element colour (where necessary, if anywhere) to that of the colour used in the weapon palette, PA menu, etc.? - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 08:39, 29 September 2007 (BST)
+** Agreed.  I'll work on that after while (going to work with the weapons icons first), and we can keep adjusting things where necessary until we have the set of colors we like best. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 04:49, 30 September 2007 (BST)
+*** It doesn't help the wiki any, really, but if the white part of all the weapon icons was made transparent, people could use cellpadding=0 and a background color in a table to display a weapon of a particular element. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 07:45, 1 October 2007 (BST)
+==Weapon icons==
+* What do you guys think about using the in-game icons for weapon categories in the weapon stats tables instead of the typed out name?  I figure in the cases of names like ''double saber'' and ''grenade'', it would greatly reduce the amount that the first column is stretched out (as well as get rid of any double spaced cells).  We could always do vector drawings of the icons, or just get nice shots of them from the game itself.  Or, we could just use the ones SonicTeam put up on their new ''PSU'' site. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 19:00, 28 September 2007 (BST)
+* That sounds good to me. The icons are generally easy enough to recognize. Can images be made to link to articles? If they can't, that would present a problem, but otherwise I'm fine with it. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 00:13, 29 September 2007 (BST)
+** I'm fairly certain that we can make images link to other articles.  I'll look into it. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 04:50, 30 September 2007 (BST)
+** Sounds like a very good idea. I actually intended to do this at some point, but then forgot. I see no reason why pictures from the game would not work. --[[User:Qwerty|Qwerty]] 00:18, 29 September 2007 (BST)
+==Enemy page template==
+* I'm happy with the [[User:Mewn/Monster_Template|enemy template]] now, so I'd like to propose it formally. If there's to be a vote, I'll let Espio handle it, heheh. Anyway, final discussion, opinions, any tulips and/or roses, etc. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 18:12, 14 September 2007 (BST)
+** Looks good to me; I could only suggest minor tweaks, such as the use of icons in place of ''leader boosts'', ''shoe boosts'' and the like in the ''boosts'' column.  I think we actually already have the appropriate icons for those somewhere on the site.  If anyone suggests a unique alternate proposal, we'll put things to a vote.  Otherwise, I think we should go with this and make any minor changes if necessary.  Objections from anyone?  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 19:40, 14 September 2007 (BST)
+* That can be easily done. I'll change the icons now. Seems better than 'shoe boosts' which has never seemed right to me anyway. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 20:15, 14 September 2007 (BST)
+** Sweet.  That looks great!  :D [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 20:25, 14 September 2007 (BST)
+* Ok, if there are no more comments, or objections or suggestions or whatever, by the time I check this site tomorrow morning (probably about 11AM GMT), I feel it should become the template as I'd like to start making a few articles with it. Alkaven is working on a few templates that seem fine so far, so hopefully we'll be able to use them (and if they aren't ready, it can always be implemented a bit later). - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 21:48, 15 September 2007 (BST)
+==Unit page template==
+* After Alkaven started a new page for [[Cara / Force]], I remembered that we hadn't finalized a standard template for the unit pages.  There was discussion going on, but that kind of trailed off.  So, let's finish this off, right?  I'm going to start a poll with the two formats we have ([[Orpad / Guard |this one]] and [[Cara / Mind |this one]]), but if anyone else has any other designs in mind, please let us know.  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 00:33, 11 September 2007 (BST)
+==Slight modifications to the weapon template?==
+* There was mention a while back about a few minor things on the weapon template that might be altered.  I can't seem to find where it was, however.  Anyway, one thing I was wondering about is the drop box.  In the Deva-zashi template given on our example page, ''monter'' is used, when, well... not everything these items can drop from should be classified as such.  (I believe I brought up the example of there being newman, beast and CAST enemies in-game that aren't exactly monsters since they aren't infected by the SEED-Virus or something.  They're simply acting out of their own zeal and free will.)  Anyway, I'd like to suggest changing ''monster'' to ''enemy''.  I've actually already done that with the weapon pages I've created, but if we decide to keep it as ''monster'', I'll change them back myself.  I know this is ridiculously minor, but I felt it needed to be mentioned.  <_<;  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 23:40, 8 September 2007 (BST)
+** Said beforehand that I thought "enemy" was more fitting, and I still hold to this view. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 00:01, 9 September 2007 (BST)
+*** Sweet.  So, I guess no objections on this?  ;)  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 17:41, 12 September 2007 (BST)
+==New line shield table proposal==
+* [[User:EspioKaos/Sandbox/Line_shields | Here]] is my proposal for a new line shield table.  I took out a number of columns that I felt were unnecessary, such as the element (for ones that can only be a specific element, this can be detailed in individual articles) and the ''Att'', ''Acc'' and ''Tech'' columns, which can also be detailed in individual articles.  (I guess these are the "hidden" stats from set bonuses and line shields made for specific battle types?)  Thoughts?  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 04:19, 7 September 2007 (BST)
+** Erm... anyone?  <_<;  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 06:24, 8 September 2007 (BST)
+*** Personally I consider the element - both NPC and synth limitation - to be one of the defining characteristics of a Line Shield. The Att./Acc./Tech. values not so much, but still directly useful information when looking up a table of Line Shields. I do however like the condensing of slots a lot! As for the comments, I believe set bonuses (with link - nice one) and Type limitations should be the focus, but not drop locations for every other shield that "might not be easy to find". - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 11:30, 8 September 2007 (BST)
+*** I have to agree with Mira on the element, it's an important part of the data. I too like the way you've done the Slots. The stuff such as bonuses to Att and Acc can be detailed in the Comments column. Other than that I think it looks better than the current table. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 16:35, 8 September 2007 (BST)
+**** OK, check out my second table.  I added the element column back in (also created temporary templates for each element color -- we can fine-tune the actual colors later).  What I'm going for is using the neutral green to identify a line shield that can be synthesized with any element you want.  Any line shields that can only be one specific element will have that element listed.  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 16:38, 8 September 2007 (BST)
+**** That looks fine to me, certainly less cluttered than the other table. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 18:33, 8 September 2007 (BST)
+***** "What I'm going for is using the neutral green to identify a line shield that can be synthesized with any element you want." -- Actually, that was already the case. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 23:59, 8 September 2007 (BST)
+****** Oh, heh.  >_>;  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 00:12, 9 September 2007 (BST)
+******* Not sure what your line (no pun intended) of reasoning was, but mine was that only non-limited shields were '''capable''' of being green. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 02:51, 11 September 2007 (BST)
+******** Yup, that was it.  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 03:11, 11 September 2007 (BST)
+==Weapon Type Names==
+* No objection, but just to clarify - Mewn's renaming of "Bows" to "Longbows" and "Grenade Launchers" to "Grenades" :| is to fit in with the weapon types listed at the "License" missions, right? - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 23:38, 4 September 2007 (BST)
+* Yes, you're right. I feel we should maintain some consistency, and Throwing Blades already got renamed to Cards by Espio half a month ago. I suppose I should point out that the Bullet License missions uses both 'Longbow' and 'Long Bow', but since I've never seen it spelled with a space, I assumed the former was the correct term and the latter was a typo. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 23:57, 4 September 2007 (BST)
+* Works for me.  :)  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 04:19, 7 September 2007 (BST)
+==Misc. item tables==
+* I've been [http://psupedia.info/My_Room_Accessories#Remodeling_tickets playing around] with what our possible template for non-stat-based items could look like.  Just like with the weapon tables, I've categorized each remodeling ticket by its star rating, followed by name.  The next column lists prices, which is more or less filler.  Same thing goes with the description column.  The version column is needed since we already know that there will be ''AotI''-exclusive tickets.  The comments column I kept and used just like with the weapons.  Personally, I'd like to stick with keeping information like the item description and price within individual item pages, but without that stuff in this table, everything looks so thin and bare.  Any ideas?  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 05:37, 25 August 2007 (BST)
+==Capitalization==
+* I'd like to get a little discussion going on [http://psupedia.info/Manual_of_Style#Capitalization_.28pending.29 this subject].  While I've listed most "odd" instances of capitalization in-game (''TECHNICs'', ''CASTs'', ''GUARDIANS Colony'', etc.), I think we should talk about how we'll capitalize things like healing item names (should they be considered proper nouns?).  Thoughts, opinions?  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 17:17, 21 August 2007 (BST)
+** I think item names should be capitalized as proper nouns, if for no other reason than it looks better to me. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 17:34, 21 August 2007 (BST)
+*** I've been torn between both sides for a while, but after looking at how odd things like ''scape doll'' and ''moon atomizer'' look without capitals, I've found myself leaning more toward considering them proper nouns.  Of course, I still think that individual item categories (recovery items, shotguns, line shields, etc.) should not be considered proper, and thus should not be capitalized.  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 18:48, 21 August 2007 (BST)
+* On the recent capitalization swapping of the line shield and photon arts sections, I think it should be pointed out that both are considered standard nouns in-game, so no special capitalization is required.  For example, check out the line shield descriptions.  You'll see "a mass-produced ''line shield''" or "a super high-end, custom-made ''line shield''" (man, they really like their hyphenated words).  On photon arts, I'm fairly certain that the menus do not capitalize the word, but I'll have to double-check that next time I play.  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 18:01, 8 September 2007 (BST)
+** I originally decapitalised Line Shields to Line shields, and Mewn changed Photon Arts to Photon arts, but you will find numerous places - particularly the manual - that deliberately capitalise both. The same applies to Photon Fortune, by the way. You are right though - the game does not capitalise it in that menu, but AFAIK all menus are "first letter is capital, all the rest are lower" so I'll question the weight of that. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 00:04, 9 September 2007 (BST)
+*** Heh, it's times like these that I wish English were like Japanese with not having to deal with capitalization.  Either that, or SEGA had been consistent with it.  XD  Anyway, I just checked the in-game tutorial, and it recognizes photon arts as a standard noun with no special caps.  o_o  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 00:20, 9 September 2007 (BST)
+I really hate bringing this back up about photon arts and line shields, but I've been finding numerous in-game instances which consider these normal nouns, thus no need for capitalization.  In ''Episode 1'' for example, there's the photon art and line shield fanatic NPCs, neither of which capitalize these words.  If you transfer a PA back to its disc form, it's ''photon art''.  Same thing with the vision phone tutorial thing.  And not only do descriptions for line shields capitalize it as such, but check the tutorial glossary thinger in your room.  Same thing there.  (The exact counterattack description is one such place it shows up.  That brings up something else:  just attack and just counter are called exact attack and exact counterattack in-game.  I guess we can address that later.)  Basically, I'm just saying that we should go with in-game terminology/capitalization when given the option.  And in cases where there are inconsistencies (which happen way too often for my liking), we either vote on a decision or go with the example set by the majority of in-game instances.  (In this example, lowercase ''line shield'' and ''photon art'' take the majority of in-game examples.)  As far as things go that are covered in the manual but not the game (i.e. Photon Fortune), the manual version will prevail since it's the next closest official source. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 12:12, 27 January 2008 (CST)
+* Can vouch for the game apparently preferring decapitalisation on line shields - notably the conditional search uses the lower case. In return, however, it considers all weapons to be proper nouns. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 13:55, 27 January 2008 (CST)
+** True, but I've noticed that in the tutorial and glossary sections, the game favors lowercase lettering for weapon categories while keeping the naming conventions of the conditional search as opposed to item descriptions.  (In the TECHNICs tutorial, ''rod'' is used instead of ''long staff'', for example.)  Even though the conditional search capitalizes weapon categories, most other uses of the words that I've seen are lower case.  Besides, it just makes a lot more sense to me that generic categories be considered standard nouns (line shields, twin handguns, rods, etc.) while specific items within those categories are proper nouns (Rabol Lebfa, Evil Twins, Marguisa, etc.).  Just like how Glocks and Desert Eagles are two types of pistols. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 15:48, 27 January 2008 (CST)
+*** I'll go with that. I was unaware there was a complete set of names outside of the conditional shop search. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 17:09, 27 January 2008 (CST)
+==Unit tables==
+{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+! Rank !! Name !! Maker !! Tech. !! Ment. !! Ver. !! Comments
+|-
+| {{Color-C}} rowspan="2" | 1★
+| [[Cara / Force]] || {{Logo-Y}} || 20 || 0 || {{PSU version}} || --
+|-
+| [[Cara / Mind]] || {{Logo-Y}} || 0 || 10 || {{PSU version}} || --
+|-
+! Rank !! Name !! Maker !! Tech. !! Ment. !! Ver. !! Comments
+|- {{JP item}}
+| {{Color-B}} | 6★
+| [[Te / Force S]] || {{Logo-Y}} || 100 || -50 || {{PSU version}} || --
+|-
+! Rank !! Name !! Maker !! Tech. !! Ment. !! Ver. !! Comments
+|-
+| {{Color-A}} | 9★
+| [[Te / TECH PP Save]] || {{Logo-Y}} || -30 || 0 || {{PSU version}} || Lowers PP usage and TP.
+|}
+This is the general idea for unit tables.  Of course, we'll swap out ''Tech'' and ''Ment'' with ''Att'', ''Acc'', ''Def'', ''Eva'' and ''End'' where applicable.  Anything else we should add?  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 03:07, 18 August 2007 (BST)
+Just wanted to add that I've done the initial conversion of the tables for both online and offline.  You can find it [[User:Propagandist/Sandbox/Units|here]], I'll keep it updated with any suggestions/changes until the format is finalized. [[User:Propagandist|Propagandist]] 04:56, 18 August 2007 (BST)
+*Excellent work!  :D  Two things.  First, a few of the offline S-rank units are identified with the A-rank green.  Minor, I know.  ;)  Second, in a few of the comments sections, it might look better with commas or semicolons separating two descriptions (Hard / Power Charge, for example).  Or maybe line breaks.  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 05:06, 18 August 2007 (BST)
+**Thanks, I wasn't able to check on those as I was at work.  Now that I'm home, I'll go through and double check all of the units to make sure it's accurate. I've also a few ideas for the comments that I want to try out. I'll note any major updates on this talk page. [[User:Propagandist|Propagandist]] 05:45, 18 August 2007 (BST)
+*** So, how we doing on this?  The adjustments you've made look great, and really, the only other thing I can suggest just has to do with capitalization of a few things in the "comments" column.  To be honest, I think we're ready for approval and all.  :)  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 17:23, 8 September 2007 (BST)
+****It's essentially done, I'm not entirely sure all of the units are accurate but that can be cleared up when it is put out on the main page I guess.  Let me know and I'll put it up (of course, you can do that too I guess).[[User:Propagandist|Propagandist]] 23:05, 8 September 2007 (BST)
+***** On the Te / TECH PP Save example above, don't we know how much it lowers the PP usage? - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 00:05, 9 September 2007 (BST)
+****** Yeah, it's actually included in Prop's tables.  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 00:30, 9 September 2007 (BST)
+==Mission info articles==
+[http://psupedia.info/SEED_Awakened This] is what I have in mind for individual mission articles.  Of course, fill in the enemy and drop sections with actual information.  Opinions?  Suggestions?  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 00:08, 17 August 2007 (BST)
+* I suggest an infobox (à la Wikipedia) to the side showing at least the following things:
+** Mission name (maybe JP name as well, since there is a large difference between the two in many cases)
+** Start Counter
+** Destination
+** Area(s) that the mission takes place in (e.g. Mad Creatures takes place in Raffon Meadow, Mad Beasts in Raffon Lakeshore etc.)
+** Type of mission (Free, Story, Co-Op, Party, Event)
+** Available ranks
+** Elements represented in the mission. - [[User:Mewn|Mewn]] 12:03, 17 August 2007 (BST)
+I'll see if I can take a shot at making a design like this when I have a chance.  (Sometimes tables just don't come out like I want, though, so no promises.  XD)  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 03:36, 18 August 2007 (BST)
+* I'm for Mewn's idea. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 00:06, 9 September 2007 (BST)
+** Guess it wouldn't hurt to get this going again.  Gentlemen, behold!  [[Planet's Scar]]  D:  That's the basic idea; of course enemy info will have to be added; drop tables and all that, too. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 14:43, 2 November 2007 (CDT)
+* OK, so [[User:EspioKaos/Sandbox|how's this]]? - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 11:19, 4 November 2007 (CST)
+==Synthesis board suggestion==
+(Copied from the scape doll talk page.)  I really hate questioning something that we're trying to set as a standard, but I think this might be a valid point.  While working on the scape doll's board info, I realized that the rarity of the board and the rarity of the item are different.  While I don't think this is a common occurrence, I think we should address it before we begin a mass implementation of synth board tables, especially since the board rarity is never mentioned anywhere.  I suggest changing the title of the table to the board name and then changing the current board name cell to indicate rarity.  Like so:
+{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+|-
+| colspan="4" style="background:#e8e8e8"| '''[B] Scape Doll'''
+|-style="background:#f9f9f9"
+| style="background:#f2f2f2" | '''Food''' || [[Hustle Berry]] x5 || style="background:#f2f2f2" | '''Chemical''' || [[Omega Acid]] x2
+|-style="background:#f9f9f9"
+| style="background:#f2f2f2" | '''[B] Uses''' || 1 || style="background:#f2f2f2" | '''Base Rate''' || 100%
+|-style="background:#f9f9f9"
+| style="background:#f2f2f2" | '''Synth Time''' || 00:00 || style="background:#f2f2f2" | '''[B] Rarity''' || {{Color-A}}|7★
+|}
+I think we should do this, unless we're going to make individual pages for each board.  Actually, that's something else.  Should we do that, or just make a synth board redirect to the page of the item it creates?  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 18:40, 13 August 2007 (BST)
+I'd be all for individual pages for boards, but the simplicity of putting board and item on one page is clear to me as well. --[[User:Beatrixkiddo|Beatrixkiddo]] 23:17, 13 August 2007 (BST)
+* I have to admit, I'm not much a fan of this style. Why?
+{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+|-
+! colspan="4"|Title goes here
+|- style="background:#fbb"
+| Material 1 || Material 2
+|- style="background:#fbb"
+| Material 3 || Material 4
+|- style="background:#8ff"
+| Synth Detail 1 || Synth Detail 2
+|- style="background:#8ff"
+| Synth Detail 3 || Synth Detail 4
+|}
+: Seems a very strange way of arranging it to me, and not particularly conductive to finding out the desired information on a synthesis quickly. Additionally, there's a lot of "<nowiki>style="background:sixcharacters"</nowiki>" expressions in there which - while easily eliminated by a template - would surely be better off made header cells (start with ! instead of | ) and then just make the "title" cell darker manually.
+: If I may pitch in a couple of ideas:
+{|
+|
+{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+|- style="background:#ddd"
+| colspan=5| '''Horizontal Item'''
+|-
+| rowspan=2 style="background:#e8e8e8"| Details
+! width=80|[B] Needed || width=80|[B] Uses || width=80|Synth Time || width=80|Base Rate
+|-
+| [B] Item || x || 0hrs || 100%
+|-
+| rowspan=2 style="background:#e8e8e8"| Materials
+! Photon || Ore || Metal || Wood
+|-
+| <photon> || <ore> || <metal> || <wood>
+|}
+|
+{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+|- style="background:#ddd"
+| colspan=4| '''Vertical Item'''
+|- style="background:#e8e8e8"
+| colspan=2|'''Details''' || colspan=2|'''Materials'''
+|-
+! width=80|[B] Needed
+| width=80|[B] Item
+! width=80|Photon
+| width=80|<photon>
+|-
+! [B] Uses
+| x
+! Ore
+| <ore>
+|-
+! Synth Time
+| 0hrs
+! Metal
+| <metal>
+|-
+! Base Rate
+| 100%
+! Wood
+| <wood>
+|}
+|
+|}
+: Actually, the code for the second one isn't edit-friendly at all. But some might prefer the look so I'll leave it there. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 00:07, 14 August 2007 (BST)
+**I like how the vertical version looks.  One problem, though:  what to do with the empty cells for boards that have less than four materials?  Also, I still favor the idea of keeping the title of the table the name of the board it's about.  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 16:24, 14 August 2007 (BST)
+* I do too, come to think of it.
+: The "number of materials" thing could do with exploration. By nature, all weapons require four (Photons, Ores, Metals, Wood) and some line shields require four (Photons, Ores, Materials, sometimes event drops). Then there are Food and Item boards which take two (Natural Materials, Chemicals), Decoration boards which take two (Special Materials, Wood) and finally Grinder / Material Upgrade boards which use just one (Grinder bases and the materials, respectively).
+: It's the last two that bother me, since those won't fit into the "vertical with oddly-grouped" setup either. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 18:35, 14 August 2007 (BST)
+**We could always take the route of unique tables for each type of synthesis board, but do what we can to make them all have the same general feel.  Maybe?  I'll give some more thought to it to see if I can come up with another design.  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 19:10, 14 August 2007 (BST)
+** Having come back to this after a couple of weeks, the answer seems pretty simple: Given that Line Shields sometimes have an "event" material (the field for which could be left blank for the rest), all synthesis categories require either 1 (Grinders), 2 (Decos, Items, Food) or 4 (Weapons, Line Shields) materials. This is very friendly to the "Horizontal Item" layout above as 4 is divisible by 1, 2 and 4 hence colspan would work nicely. Observe:
+{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+|- style="background:#ddd"
+| colspan=5| '''Sori-senba'''
+|-
+| rowspan=2 style="background:#e8e8e8"| Details
+! [B] Needed || [B] Uses || Synth Time || Base Rate
+|-
+| [B] Sori-senba || 3 || 8h || 1%
+|-
+| rowspan=2 style="background:#e8e8e8"| Materials
+! Photon || Ore || Material || Event
+|-
+| Ray-photon x15 || Vestaline x25 || Ortaresin x35 || <none>
+|}
+{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+|- style="background:#ddd"
+| colspan=5| '''Monomate'''
+|-
+| rowspan=2 style="background:#e8e8e8"| Details
+! [B] Needed || [B] Uses || Synth Time || Base Rate
+|-
+| [B] Monomate || 20 || 0h || 100%
+|-
+| rowspan=2 style="background:#e8e8e8"| Materials
+! colspan=2| Natural || colspan=2| Chemical
+|-
+| colspan=2| Sweet Berry || colspan=2| Trans Acid
+|}
+{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+|- style="background:#ddd"
+| colspan=5| '''Airboard'''
+|-
+| rowspan=2 style="background:#e8e8e8"| Details
+! [B] Needed || [B] Uses || Synth Time || Base Rate
+|-
+| [B] Parum Souvenir || 1 || 15m || 60%
+|-
+| rowspan=2 style="background:#e8e8e8"| Materials
+! colspan=4| Ingredient
+|-
+| colspan=4| Par Ash x20
+|}
+* Just keeping the ideas going. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 03:10, 11 September 2007 (BST)
+** That does work very nicely.  I like it!  Perhaps ''details'' and ''materials'' could be put in bold, however.  I think that might look even better.  [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 03:22, 11 September 2007 (BST)
+*** ...agreed. They actually are in that vertical table. I missed it in the first horizontal table though, and the following examples carried that mistake down ^^ - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 18:54, 11 September 2007 (BST)
+== Line Shield & Slot Icons ==
+* Maybe they are here but i cannot find them if not though I hope a PC user will be willing to help with this as i cannot take screen shots. Can someone make icons for the Line Shields, Head Slots, Arm Slots, Body Slots & Extra Slots? Should be a hard task with a good screen shot and would be a nice touch for drop charts among other things. -- [[User:KyTin|KyTin]] 14:53, 7 November 2007 (CST)
+** I was planning on doing this eventually, actually.  :)  I'd like to use the slot icons in the line shield chart instead of H, A, B and E.  Also, I'd planned on using the line shield icon in each line shield article's stat box, just so it doesn't stretch the table out when "line shield" is broken into two lines.  I'm at work right now, so I don't have a way to take screens, but when I get home (won't be until much, much later tonight, however), I can put together the icons if I have time. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 14:59, 7 November 2007 (CST)
+*** Cool, sure they will be put to a lot of use if i can help let me know. -- [[User:KyTin|KyTin]] 15:13, 7 November 2007 (CST)
+*** Looks good to me [[Dulk-senba]], anyone mind if we template the icon. -- [[User:KyTin|KyTin]] 20:38, 8 November 2007 (CST)
+**** [[Template:Line_shield_icon | Templatized]].  :D - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 21:41, 8 November 2007 (CST)
+== Enemy spawn chart ==
+* There's some variation amongst the various mission articles and within the slightly elder [[Rare monsters]] article itself, so perhaps we should finalise and roll out a standard enemy spawn chart. Things like wikitable and the use of <nowiki>{{Color-A}}</nowiki> are no-brainers, but things like the position of the left-most cloumns or the notation of spawn patterns could use some tightening up. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 18:17, 21 December 2007 (CST)
+** Thrown together everything I can think of at the moment: see [[Sandbox:Enemy spawn chart|here]]. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 19:23, 21 December 2007 (CST)
+*** I know this one's not high on the priority list, but bumping it anyway because Amaury's sandstorm buried it before many would have noticed. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 08:40, 22 December 2007 (CST)
+** Looks great to me.  The only thing I could suggest is minor, and that would be to correct a few capitalizations in the table headings.  ;) - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 09:58, 22 December 2007 (CST)
+*** How about now? Still unsure on whether to push "first spawn" or "initial spawn" (I know it doesn't really matter, but :/ ) and what to do if two map variations share the same block 1. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 08:01, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+**** Excellent.  And I say go with "initial spawn."  Like you said, it doesn't really matter, but I just think it sounds better.  ;) - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 08:15, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+***** Doubt there'll be further objections, so all that's left is what to do with shared block 1s. As far as I'm concerned, [[Rare monsters#Fight For Food]] is an example of vertical stretching looking horrible. My suggestions would be to do as the example is only with far smaller images, or to simply show just the block 2s (and note that), and link the shared block 1 image in the notes beneath the spawn chart. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 08:42, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+* Just did a little testing on Fight for Food's chart with smaller images by reducing the A and B pattern images down to 150px.  It works, but it looks a little funny.  So, I say show block 2 in the chart and make a footnote (with image link) stating that block 1 will look the same between both patterns. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 08:52, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+** Yeah, should be fine. I don't know how to image link without making it considered an external link though, I must admit. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 10:12, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+* On another note, if the "certainly not rare" and "certainly rare" colours are fine, suggest making templates such as <nowiki>{{NotRare}}</nowiki> for their code. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 10:12, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+** I'll have to look into making templates for the colors.  I'm not sure if I just didn't something wrong, but my first attempt ended in table destruction when I previewed it.  D: - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 10:32, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+*** Made everything red? There'd probably need to be a <nowiki>{{/Rare]}</nowiki> tag that closes off the formatting and (if we go with it ) bolding. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 10:35, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+**** Ah, figured it out.  I used HTML tags instead of style tags in my first attempt, and that's what killed everything.  <code><nowiki>{{Rare spawn}}</nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki>{{Not rare}}</nowiki></code> are the two templates for this. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 11:02, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+***** They were HTML because it seems the only way to target specific text. Those tags as-are will only operate on entire cells. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 11:19, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+****** Ah, good point.  These will also change the color of ''initial spawn'' or whatever other descriptor text is in the cell.  We might just have to stick with using un-templated HTML tags to target what we want colored.  I don't think that'd be too much of an issue. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 12:03, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+******* My thoughts were thus:
+:::::{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+! Template !! Content !! Effect
+|-
+| <nowiki>{{RareN}}</nowiki> || <nowiki><font color="#ff0000">'''</nowiki> || Starts red and bolding.
+|-
+| <nowiki>{{RareY}}</nowiki> || <nowiki><font color="#007f00">'''</nowiki> || Starts darkgreen and bolding.
+|-
+| <nowiki>{{/Rare}}</nowiki> || <nowiki>'''</font></nowiki> || Stops bolding and either color.
+|}
+::::: 'course it's not necessary at all, but it's a fair amount of hassle and space saved, was the intention. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 12:38, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+* I'm running into the same problem as before.  D:
+{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+! Example || Meaning
+|-
+| Koltova x4 & Vahra x2 || 4 Koltova and 2 Vahra will spawn all at once.
+|-
+| Koltova x4 + Vahra x2 || 4 Koltova will spawn, and 2 Vahra will spawn when '''some''' of the Koltova are killed.
+|-
+| Koltova x4 → Vahra x2 || 4 Koltova will spawn, then 2 Vahra will spawn after '''all''' of the Koltova are killed.
+|-
+| Koltova x4+4 || 4 Koltova will spawn, and 4 more will spawn when some are killed.
+|-
+| {{RareN}}Koltova x4{{/Rare}} || If you get to this point and see the stated spawn, the map variation cannot be rare.
+|- {{Color-A}}
+| {{RareY}}Vahra x4{{/Rare}} || If you get to this point and see the stated spawn, the map variation is certainly rare.
+|}
+: That's what happens.  D: - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 12:49, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+** Yeah, I tried pretty much the same thing after watchin' ya make those. I have an idea though, let me try something out. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 12:52, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+*** Success. It's still about as short as before, with the benefit of being under one template. Whaddaya think? - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 13:05, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+**** Excellent!  That's perfect! - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 13:07, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+***** Alright, I'm happy with that sandbox as it is. This isn't really the sort of thing that can be put to vote, but how about leaving this one open for 5 days or so in case anyone else has suggestions before pushing for it as the standard to be used in mission articles? - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 13:12, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+****** Sounds good to me. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 13:18, 23 December 2007 (CST)
+******* Quick bump before deadline. [[Sandbox:Enemy spawn chart|Linky]] again. Anyone got any further changes or suggestions before time runs out on this one? - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 09:36, 27 December 2007 (CST)
+******** Fine as it is, then? - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 08:54, 28 December 2007 (CST)
+********* Five days with no further suggestions from anyone; I think we're good to go.  Now we can begin transferring spawn data to individual mission articles. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 10:28, 28 December 2007 (CST)
+********** Ahaha, darnit. It's just occured to me that "details" might be a better word than "features" due to character width. It also feels a little more objective, though I kinda like the flavour of "features". - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 19:15, 28 December 2007 (CST)
+*********** I have to agree.  It's a small change, so it won't take much time at all to swap the wording in the tables that have been converted.  I'm going to finish up the Duel in the Ruins chart I'm converting, then I'll make the changes to the tables we have in place. ;) - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 20:15, 28 December 2007 (CST)
+************ Sure you've noticed, but heads-up: Just converted all the GC and Parum mission articles so the tables are ready for the new format. Also went psycho on the existing [[Rare monsters]] article. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 20:30, 28 December 2007 (CST)
+************* Heh heh, I see!  Good to be making progress of course.  Now that I've converted the Duel in the Ruins table, I'll change the wording of the tables that need it from "features" to "details," then I'll see about converting more tables.  I'd like to try to get the most wanted ones that people are always asking about done to help give mission articles more exposure. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 20:38, 28 December 2007 (CST)
+* (Too many bullets >.<) On an edit-side note, what's your view on the coding format? Many of the tables in [[Rare monsters]] use a separate row for every cell, which does nothing to the article size but might make editing a little easier. - [[User:Miraglyth|Miraglyth]] 20:44, 28 December 2007 (CST)
+** I noticed the different coding in the Duel in the Ruins table.  It threw me off for a second at first, to be honest.  XD  Personally, I prefer the style of separating cells in a row with double vertical pipes.  (I think that's what they're called.)  I've just gotten used to it, I guess. - [[User:EspioKaos|EspioKaos]] 20:50, 28 December 2007 (CST)
 ==Page-stretching and so forth==