Difference between revisions of "The re-PSUPedia talk:Manual of style"

Revision as of 23:11, 14 April 2008

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Open polls

Stat abbreviations

Which would you prefer that we use for weapon and line shield stats? In-game abbreviations such as Tech. and Acc. or the abbreviations used for a character's base stats, TP and ATA? Voting will be open until Tuesday, April 22, 00:00 CDT. Remember to bold your choice, give your reasoning (if you please) and include your signature.

• In-game abbreviations - I feel that since we're trying to be as consistent with the game as possible (though it's sometimes difficult considering the game's inconsistencies), we should use the abbreviations used on weapon, line shield and unit pages in our articles. - EspioKaos 18:00, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
• Base stat abbreviations: While I agree with the concept of staying true to whatever is in the game, I prefer the base stat abbreviations for a purely pragmatic reason: no one ever uses the in-game abbreviations when talking about anything, so using the stats makes it less confusing. But, I figure I'm in the minority here, and this is really minor so I'll go with it either way. Only real issue will be spending time to update all those pages (maybe that can be done via templates, but many of those confuse me so idk). --Qwerty 18:11, 14 April 2008 (CDT)

New enemy article layout

I know we'd previously decided on an enemy article layout, but I've since done some tweaking to it, removing unnecessary information while adding in useful stuff from the Perfect Bible and prettifying the basic infobox and stat table. It can be seen here. Any suggestions or objections? - EspioKaos 09:23, 11 January 2008 (CST)

Mission page proposal

• Making this my official proposal for our new mission articles. Behold! I do believe I've got everything tweaked just the way I want it. If anyone else has suggestions or ideas of their own for a similar page, please don't keep it to yourself! Create a new page and submit it here; otherwise I'd like to see us get to work on creating mission articles with this template as soon as possible. - EspioKaos 23:07, 4 November 2007 (CST)
• Holy cow. I love this. - Miraglyth 02:54, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • Thanks, Mira!  :) - EspioKaos 06:35, 6 November 2007 (CST)
• Glad I could help on it, I still think i like the mission info box with cellspacing set to zero though just so it looks like the wikitable. -- KyTin 04:10, 6 November 2007 (CST)
• Which is still being used on Planet's Scar don't know if I made the change on the sandbox or there now that I think about it lol. -- KyTin 04:14, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • Yeah, the infobox's cell spacing finally started to look fine to me. Besides, when it was made to look like the other tables, any text outside of the box ran right up to the side without leaving any space, and I just thought it looked a little sloppy. I still don't know why the text does that on the zero-cell-spaced one. XD - EspioKaos 06:35, 6 November 2007 (CST)
• A lot like my old page at http://psupedia.info/User:Au/Sandbox that I never got around to complete or propose or anything. Glad you did! My comments. First, I would like the map pattern info to be on these pages too (could templatize these like the drops and have them both on the rare monster page and on the missions). Second, monster counts are nice too if available. Third, the 'Available ranks' field in the mission info box is not needed since you can get that info from the 'Mission requirements and rewards' section on the same screen, it's duplicate info. Fourth, I think the colors in the mission requirements box are ugly. Red for unavailable ranks is fine but the blue hurts my eyes. Rest looks good!
  • Keep in mind that the blue background (likewise, the red) is completely temporary, as the blue will be taken away when the English version of the game receives that particular mission. Just like with the weapon/line shield tables where a currently-Japanese-only item hasn't made its way to us yet. I'd considered adding the spawn charts to the article, but I was afraid I might be throwing too much stuff in there. XD That's why I opted for a link to that particular mission's spawn chart at the top of the page. - EspioKaos 11:11, 6 November 2007 (CST)
• The running text is a quick fix set cellspacing 0 on the main area then on the subs where the text is set it to 1-3 and problem solved. Let me know if you need any help with that i can show you what it will look like on the one that has it that way still. -- KyTin 10:38, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • Feel free to update that one like that, or if you want, you can copy-paste the code into a sandbox of your own to play around with and show us any adjustments you'd like to make. To be honest, though, I've actually become quite attached to the style I've got now. XD - EspioKaos 11:11, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • The template looks great to me, very readable, useful data when filled in etc. and any improvements can be made over time anyway. - Mewn 11:47, 6 November 2007 (CST)
• I've updated my Grove of Fanatics article to include a (blank) rare spawn chart and to remove a little redundant information. Thoughts? - EspioKaos 11:48, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • Spawn information is exactly one of the things why I would want to look at a mission page, so I like it. One thingy though, I wouldn't name it a 'rare spawn chart' but just 'spawn chart'; all map information is interesting sometimes not just the rare ones. Au+ 12:13, 6 November 2007 (CST)
    • Ah, good point. I'll fix that. - EspioKaos 12:14, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • Perhaps a place for enemy counts would be useful as well. Though I imagine it wouldn't be easy to get the info.Propagandist 13:30, 6 November 2007 (CST)
    • OK, I've added it to the Grove article. Provided we have people willing to get counts on enemies, it shouldn't be too difficult, but exactly how useful is it? I mean, I can think of an example of wanting a certain item that drops from one enemy, so I'd want to find the mission with the most spawns of that one enemy to increase my chances of it dropping. But, otherwise I don't know. - EspioKaos 14:01, 6 November 2007 (CST)
• Random thought what about the mission with variable exp such as rainbow beast S2. -- KyTin 15:18, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • D: It has variable EXP? I hadn't noticed. Can you elaborate on that for me?  ;) - EspioKaos 15:20, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • I've never heard of variable EXP - EXP is static and depends on the monster, its level, and whether it has sword/shield/crown/whatever. If, as I'm guessing, you're referring to lower levels getting less EXP - there's actually an EXP penalty for killing monsters 31 levels or more above your level. Kinda stupid if you ask me, that's what level requirements are supposed to be for, but eh. - Mewn 15:34, 6 November 2007 (CST)
    • We had 6 people in the party running there the level req is 65 i think our party was levels 65-95. We had at least 3 different exp numbers possible more, I guess it could be from the penalty. The monsters there i think are level 100 I think so not sure how the penalty works out 100%. -- KyTin 16:21, 6 November 2007 (CST)
    • Like I said, the penalty applies if the monsters are 31 or more levels above your character (might be 30 actually, I'm not quite sure). Anyone in your party who was level 65-69/70 would receive less EXP from defeating Lv100 monsters than higher levels would, explaining the different EXP numbers. It's a sliding scale as well, a 65 would receive less EXP than a 69 would. - Mewn 16:24, 6 November 2007 (CST)
• OK, so I think I'm just going to go ahead and start implementing the new design into mission pages that we need. I'm going to leave the counts table out, however, until we decide on its necessity or get them all created. If we decide that they would be good to have, we'll just add them in later. I will be leaving much of the EXP/MP/Meseta/drop/spawn info in the tables blank because (01) I'd like to get these templates set up quickly and (02) a lot of this data will be changing in next week's update anyway. - EspioKaos 14:03, 7 November 2007 (CST)

Star icons

• Following on from the previous icon suggestions, since I have AoI and should be able to do it - instead of something like would it be better to take images directly from the game and use them for the star rarities? I find that a better idea because the 10-12* and 13-15* colours in particular do not go well with a white background. - Mewn 16:16, 4 October 2007 (BST)
  • The stars taken from the game take up a lot more space; and might also prove to be tricky to get right since they're anti-aliased. We may be better off with hand-drawn stars; could just grab the ones we have now and draw a black border around them or so. Au+ 18:37, 4 October 2007 (BST)
    • Black borders sound ugleh. How well do the game rips shrink? That definitely sound preferable if done right. - Miraglyth 18:49, 4 October 2007 (BST)
• Hey, Mewn? Let's give it a shot. When you get a chance, could you upload one star of each color? We can turn them into templates to see how they look and go from there.  ;) - EspioKaos 13:03, 4 November 2007 (CST)
• Thanks to Mewn, we now have our new batch of star icons. (See Alteratsu Cauda for an example of their use.) Anyone have any objections to templatizing them and putting them to use across the site? - EspioKaos 23:08, 4 November 2007 (CST)
• Seems like there are no real objections. I'll do the templates. - Mewn 15:35, 5 November 2007 (CST)
• I know this is a little late but if anyone is interested I'll try my hand at making a set of star icons that match the rips as closely as possible.Propagandist 00:47, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • Here is what I came up with. Each star is currently 18px square. Let me know if there are any changes to be made. I made the background transparent so we don't get the grey background. If you like them, I'll split them into separate star graphics for each color. On another somewhat related note, I was thinking about trying to get the 13-15 stars to animate similarly to the way the do in the game (of course I haven't actually seen what that looks like). Any thoughts on that? Propagandist 03:27, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • I updated the star graphic so they are 16px square. Let me know if they look okay.Propagandist 14:23, 6 November 2007 (CST)
    • Perfect! - EspioKaos 14:28, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • I uploaded the final versions of the stars. I did one star per file so we can assemble them using templates.Propagandist 14:12, 7 November 2007 (CST)
    • Thanks! They've been templatized.  :D - EspioKaos 14:35, 7 November 2007 (CST)
• I can't say I'm a fan of rectangular grey blocks. Otherwise, lookin' fine. - Miraglyth 02:53, 6 November 2007 (CST)
• Excellent, Propagandist! Love the idea of the stars from 13-15 being animated, too.  ;) The only suggestion I can make would be to maybe scale these down just a little bit, probably to about the size of the stars we're using now. The images now are 18px tall, but when I cropped them, I left 1px of gray space on all sides, so the stars are only 16px tall. - EspioKaos 06:32, 6 November 2007 (CST)
• They do look really good. I wanted to get rid of the grey background myself but I don't really have the talent to do it, not being particularly graphics-savvy. The idea of the 13th-15th stars being animated is cool as well, from memory they glow from a golden-browny colour to light cream (almost white), but it might be better to wait until AoI is released so you can see for yourself. - Mewn 11:43, 6 November 2007 (CST)

Element colours

• Similar to below suggestion, why not standardise element colour (where necessary, if anywhere) to that of the colour used in the weapon palette, PA menu, etc.? - Miraglyth 08:39, 29 September 2007 (BST)
  • Agreed. I'll work on that after while (going to work with the weapons icons first), and we can keep adjusting things where necessary until we have the set of colors we like best. - EspioKaos 04:49, 30 September 2007 (BST)
    • It doesn't help the wiki any, really, but if the white part of all the weapon icons was made transparent, people could use cellpadding=0 and a background color in a table to display a weapon of a particular element. - Miraglyth 07:45, 1 October 2007 (BST)

Weapon icons

• What do you guys think about using the in-game icons for weapon categories in the weapon stats tables instead of the typed out name? I figure in the cases of names like double saber and grenade, it would greatly reduce the amount that the first column is stretched out (as well as get rid of any double spaced cells). We could always do vector drawings of the icons, or just get nice shots of them from the game itself. Or, we could just use the ones SonicTeam put up on their new PSU site. - EspioKaos 19:00, 28 September 2007 (BST)
• That sounds good to me. The icons are generally easy enough to recognize. Can images be made to link to articles? If they can't, that would present a problem, but otherwise I'm fine with it. - Mewn 00:13, 29 September 2007 (BST)
  • I'm fairly certain that we can make images link to other articles. I'll look into it. - EspioKaos 04:50, 30 September 2007 (BST)
  • Sounds like a very good idea. I actually intended to do this at some point, but then forgot. I see no reason why pictures from the game would not work. --Qwerty 00:18, 29 September 2007 (BST)

Enemy page template

• I'm happy with the enemy template now, so I'd like to propose it formally. If there's to be a vote, I'll let Espio handle it, heheh. Anyway, final discussion, opinions, any tulips and/or roses, etc. - Mewn 18:12, 14 September 2007 (BST)
  • Looks good to me; I could only suggest minor tweaks, such as the use of icons in place of leader boosts, shoe boosts and the like in the boosts column. I think we actually already have the appropriate icons for those somewhere on the site. If anyone suggests a unique alternate proposal, we'll put things to a vote. Otherwise, I think we should go with this and make any minor changes if necessary. Objections from anyone? EspioKaos 19:40, 14 September 2007 (BST)
• That can be easily done. I'll change the icons now. Seems better than 'shoe boosts' which has never seemed right to me anyway. - Mewn 20:15, 14 September 2007 (BST)
  • Sweet. That looks great!  :D EspioKaos 20:25, 14 September 2007 (BST)

• Ok, if there are no more comments, or objections or suggestions or whatever, by the time I check this site tomorrow morning (probably about 11AM GMT), I feel it should become the template as I'd like to start making a few articles with it. Alkaven is working on a few templates that seem fine so far, so hopefully we'll be able to use them (and if they aren't ready, it can always be implemented a bit later). - Mewn 21:48, 15 September 2007 (BST)

Unit page template

• After Alkaven started a new page for Cara / Force, I remembered that we hadn't finalized a standard template for the unit pages. There was discussion going on, but that kind of trailed off. So, let's finish this off, right? I'm going to start a poll with the two formats we have (this one and this one), but if anyone else has any other designs in mind, please let us know. EspioKaos 00:33, 11 September 2007 (BST)

Slight modifications to the weapon template?

• There was mention a while back about a few minor things on the weapon template that might be altered. I can't seem to find where it was, however. Anyway, one thing I was wondering about is the drop box. In the Deva-zashi template given on our example page, monter is used, when, well... not everything these items can drop from should be classified as such. (I believe I brought up the example of there being newman, beast and CAST enemies in-game that aren't exactly monsters since they aren't infected by the SEED-Virus or something. They're simply acting out of their own zeal and free will.) Anyway, I'd like to suggest changing monster to enemy. I've actually already done that with the weapon pages I've created, but if we decide to keep it as monster, I'll change them back myself. I know this is ridiculously minor, but I felt it needed to be mentioned. <_<; EspioKaos 23:40, 8 September 2007 (BST)
  • Said beforehand that I thought "enemy" was more fitting, and I still hold to this view. - Miraglyth 00:01, 9 September 2007 (BST)
    • Sweet. So, I guess no objections on this?  ;) EspioKaos 17:41, 12 September 2007 (BST)

New line shield table proposal

• Here is my proposal for a new line shield table. I took out a number of columns that I felt were unnecessary, such as the element (for ones that can only be a specific element, this can be detailed in individual articles) and the Att, Acc and Tech columns, which can also be detailed in individual articles. (I guess these are the "hidden" stats from set bonuses and line shields made for specific battle types?) Thoughts? EspioKaos 04:19, 7 September 2007 (BST)
  • Erm... anyone? <_<; EspioKaos 06:24, 8 September 2007 (BST)
    • Personally I consider the element - both NPC and synth limitation - to be one of the defining characteristics of a Line Shield. The Att./Acc./Tech. values not so much, but still directly useful information when looking up a table of Line Shields. I do however like the condensing of slots a lot! As for the comments, I believe set bonuses (with link - nice one) and Type limitations should be the focus, but not drop locations for every other shield that "might not be easy to find". - Miraglyth 11:30, 8 September 2007 (BST)
    • I have to agree with Mira on the element, it's an important part of the data. I too like the way you've done the Slots. The stuff such as bonuses to Att and Acc can be detailed in the Comments column. Other than that I think it looks better than the current table. - Mewn 16:35, 8 September 2007 (BST)
      • OK, check out my second table. I added the element column back in (also created temporary templates for each element color -- we can fine-tune the actual colors later). What I'm going for is using the neutral green to identify a line shield that can be synthesized with any element you want. Any line shields that can only be one specific element will have that element listed. EspioKaos 16:38, 8 September 2007 (BST)
      • That looks fine to me, certainly less cluttered than the other table. - Mewn 18:33, 8 September 2007 (BST)
        • "What I'm going for is using the neutral green to identify a line shield that can be synthesized with any element you want." -- Actually, that was already the case. - Miraglyth 23:59, 8 September 2007 (BST)
          • Oh, heh. >_>; EspioKaos 00:12, 9 September 2007 (BST)
            • Not sure what your line (no pun intended) of reasoning was, but mine was that only non-limited shields were capable of being green. - Miraglyth 02:51, 11 September 2007 (BST)
              • Yup, that was it. EspioKaos 03:11, 11 September 2007 (BST)

Weapon Type Names

• No objection, but just to clarify - Mewn's renaming of "Bows" to "Longbows" and "Grenade Launchers" to "Grenades" :| is to fit in with the weapon types listed at the "License" missions, right? - Miraglyth 23:38, 4 September 2007 (BST)
• Yes, you're right. I feel we should maintain some consistency, and Throwing Blades already got renamed to Cards by Espio half a month ago. I suppose I should point out that the Bullet License missions uses both 'Longbow' and 'Long Bow', but since I've never seen it spelled with a space, I assumed the former was the correct term and the latter was a typo. - Mewn 23:57, 4 September 2007 (BST)
• Works for me.  :) EspioKaos 04:19, 7 September 2007 (BST)

Misc. item tables

• I've been playing around with what our possible template for non-stat-based items could look like. Just like with the weapon tables, I've categorized each remodeling ticket by its star rating, followed by name. The next column lists prices, which is more or less filler. Same thing goes with the description column. The version column is needed since we already know that there will be AotI-exclusive tickets. The comments column I kept and used just like with the weapons. Personally, I'd like to stick with keeping information like the item description and price within individual item pages, but without that stuff in this table, everything looks so thin and bare. Any ideas? EspioKaos 05:37, 25 August 2007 (BST)

Capitalization

• I'd like to get a little discussion going on this subject. While I've listed most "odd" instances of capitalization in-game (TECHNICs, CASTs, GUARDIANS Colony, etc.), I think we should talk about how we'll capitalize things like healing item names (should they be considered proper nouns?). Thoughts, opinions? EspioKaos 17:17, 21 August 2007 (BST)
  • I think item names should be capitalized as proper nouns, if for no other reason than it looks better to me. - Mewn 17:34, 21 August 2007 (BST)
    • I've been torn between both sides for a while, but after looking at how odd things like scape doll and moon atomizer look without capitals, I've found myself leaning more toward considering them proper nouns. Of course, I still think that individual item categories (recovery items, shotguns, line shields, etc.) should not be considered proper, and thus should not be capitalized. EspioKaos 18:48, 21 August 2007 (BST)
• On the recent capitalization swapping of the line shield and photon arts sections, I think it should be pointed out that both are considered standard nouns in-game, so no special capitalization is required. For example, check out the line shield descriptions. You'll see "a mass-produced line shield" or "a super high-end, custom-made line shield" (man, they really like their hyphenated words). On photon arts, I'm fairly certain that the menus do not capitalize the word, but I'll have to double-check that next time I play. EspioKaos 18:01, 8 September 2007 (BST)
  • I originally decapitalised Line Shields to Line shields, and Mewn changed Photon Arts to Photon arts, but you will find numerous places - particularly the manual - that deliberately capitalise both. The same applies to Photon Fortune, by the way. You are right though - the game does not capitalise it in that menu, but AFAIK all menus are "first letter is capital, all the rest are lower" so I'll question the weight of that. - Miraglyth 00:04, 9 September 2007 (BST)
    • Heh, it's times like these that I wish English were like Japanese with not having to deal with capitalization. Either that, or SEGA had been consistent with it. XD Anyway, I just checked the in-game tutorial, and it recognizes photon arts as a standard noun with no special caps. o_o EspioKaos 00:20, 9 September 2007 (BST)

I really hate bringing this back up about photon arts and line shields, but I've been finding numerous in-game instances which consider these normal nouns, thus no need for capitalization. In Episode 1 for example, there's the photon art and line shield fanatic NPCs, neither of which capitalize these words. If you transfer a PA back to its disc form, it's photon art. Same thing with the vision phone tutorial thing. And not only do descriptions for line shields capitalize it as such, but check the tutorial glossary thinger in your room. Same thing there. (The exact counterattack description is one such place it shows up. That brings up something else: just attack and just counter are called exact attack and exact counterattack in-game. I guess we can address that later.) Basically, I'm just saying that we should go with in-game terminology/capitalization when given the option. And in cases where there are inconsistencies (which happen way too often for my liking), we either vote on a decision or go with the example set by the majority of in-game instances. (In this example, lowercase line shield and photon art take the majority of in-game examples.) As far as things go that are covered in the manual but not the game (i.e. Photon Fortune), the manual version will prevail since it's the next closest official source. - EspioKaos 12:12, 27 January 2008 (CST)

• Can vouch for the game apparently preferring decapitalisation on line shields - notably the conditional search uses the lower case. In return, however, it considers all weapons to be proper nouns. - Miraglyth 13:55, 27 January 2008 (CST)
  • True, but I've noticed that in the tutorial and glossary sections, the game favors lowercase lettering for weapon categories while keeping the naming conventions of the conditional search as opposed to item descriptions. (In the TECHNICs tutorial, rod is used instead of long staff, for example.) Even though the conditional search capitalizes weapon categories, most other uses of the words that I've seen are lower case. Besides, it just makes a lot more sense to me that generic categories be considered standard nouns (line shields, twin handguns, rods, etc.) while specific items within those categories are proper nouns (Rabol Lebfa, Evil Twins, Marguisa, etc.). Just like how Glocks and Desert Eagles are two types of pistols. - EspioKaos 15:48, 27 January 2008 (CST)
    • I'll go with that. I was unaware there was a complete set of names outside of the conditional shop search. - Miraglyth 17:09, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Unit tables

Rank	Name	Maker	Tech.	Ment.	Ver.	Comments
1★	Cara / Force		20	0		--
	Cara / Mind		0	10		--
Rank	Name	Maker	Tech.	Ment.	Ver.	Comments
6★	Te / Force S		100	-50		--
Rank	Name	Maker	Tech.	Ment.	Ver.	Comments
9★	Te / TECH PP Save		-30	0		Lowers PP usage and TP.

This is the general idea for unit tables. Of course, we'll swap out Tech and Ment with Att, Acc, Def, Eva and End where applicable. Anything else we should add? EspioKaos 03:07, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Just wanted to add that I've done the initial conversion of the tables for both online and offline. You can find it here, I'll keep it updated with any suggestions/changes until the format is finalized. Propagandist 04:56, 18 August 2007 (BST)

• Excellent work!  :D Two things. First, a few of the offline S-rank units are identified with the A-rank green. Minor, I know.  ;) Second, in a few of the comments sections, it might look better with commas or semicolons separating two descriptions (Hard / Power Charge, for example). Or maybe line breaks. EspioKaos 05:06, 18 August 2007 (BST)
  • Thanks, I wasn't able to check on those as I was at work. Now that I'm home, I'll go through and double check all of the units to make sure it's accurate. I've also a few ideas for the comments that I want to try out. I'll note any major updates on this talk page. Propagandist 05:45, 18 August 2007 (BST)
    • So, how we doing on this? The adjustments you've made look great, and really, the only other thing I can suggest just has to do with capitalization of a few things in the "comments" column. To be honest, I think we're ready for approval and all.  :) EspioKaos 17:23, 8 September 2007 (BST)
      • It's essentially done, I'm not entirely sure all of the units are accurate but that can be cleared up when it is put out on the main page I guess. Let me know and I'll put it up (of course, you can do that too I guess).Propagandist 23:05, 8 September 2007 (BST)
        • On the Te / TECH PP Save example above, don't we know how much it lowers the PP usage? - Miraglyth 00:05, 9 September 2007 (BST)
          • Yeah, it's actually included in Prop's tables. EspioKaos 00:30, 9 September 2007 (BST)

Mission info articles

This is what I have in mind for individual mission articles. Of course, fill in the enemy and drop sections with actual information. Opinions? Suggestions? EspioKaos 00:08, 17 August 2007 (BST)

• I suggest an infobox (à la Wikipedia) to the side showing at least the following things:
  • Mission name (maybe JP name as well, since there is a large difference between the two in many cases)
  • Start Counter
  • Destination
  • Area(s) that the mission takes place in (e.g. Mad Creatures takes place in Raffon Meadow, Mad Beasts in Raffon Lakeshore etc.)
  • Type of mission (Free, Story, Co-Op, Party, Event)
  • Available ranks
  • Elements represented in the mission. - Mewn 12:03, 17 August 2007 (BST)

I'll see if I can take a shot at making a design like this when I have a chance. (Sometimes tables just don't come out like I want, though, so no promises. XD) EspioKaos 03:36, 18 August 2007 (BST)

• I'm for Mewn's idea. - Miraglyth 00:06, 9 September 2007 (BST)
  • Guess it wouldn't hurt to get this going again. Gentlemen, behold! Planet's Scar D: That's the basic idea; of course enemy info will have to be added; drop tables and all that, too. - EspioKaos 14:43, 2 November 2007 (CDT)
• OK, so how's this? - EspioKaos 11:19, 4 November 2007 (CST)

Synthesis board suggestion

(Copied from the scape doll talk page.) I really hate questioning something that we're trying to set as a standard, but I think this might be a valid point. While working on the scape doll's board info, I realized that the rarity of the board and the rarity of the item are different. While I don't think this is a common occurrence, I think we should address it before we begin a mass implementation of synth board tables, especially since the board rarity is never mentioned anywhere. I suggest changing the title of the table to the board name and then changing the current board name cell to indicate rarity. Like so:

I think we should do this, unless we're going to make individual pages for each board. Actually, that's something else. Should we do that, or just make a synth board redirect to the page of the item it creates? EspioKaos 18:40, 13 August 2007 (BST)

I'd be all for individual pages for boards, but the simplicity of putting board and item on one page is clear to me as well. --Beatrixkiddo 23:17, 13 August 2007 (BST)

• I have to admit, I'm not much a fan of this style. Why?

Seems a very strange way of arranging it to me, and not particularly conductive to finding out the desired information on a synthesis quickly. Additionally, there's a lot of "style="background:sixcharacters"" expressions in there which - while easily eliminated by a template - would surely be better off made header cells (start with ! instead of | ) and then just make the "title" cell darker manually.

If I may pitch in a couple of ideas:

Actually, the code for the second one isn't edit-friendly at all. But some might prefer the look so I'll leave it there. - Miraglyth 00:07, 14 August 2007 (BST)

• • I like how the vertical version looks. One problem, though: what to do with the empty cells for boards that have less than four materials? Also, I still favor the idea of keeping the title of the table the name of the board it's about. EspioKaos 16:24, 14 August 2007 (BST)
• I do too, come to think of it.

The "number of materials" thing could do with exploration. By nature, all weapons require four (Photons, Ores, Metals, Wood) and some line shields require four (Photons, Ores, Materials, sometimes event drops). Then there are Food and Item boards which take two (Natural Materials, Chemicals), Decoration boards which take two (Special Materials, Wood) and finally Grinder / Material Upgrade boards which use just one (Grinder bases and the materials, respectively).

It's the last two that bother me, since those won't fit into the "vertical with oddly-grouped" setup either. - Miraglyth 18:35, 14 August 2007 (BST)

• • We could always take the route of unique tables for each type of synthesis board, but do what we can to make them all have the same general feel. Maybe? I'll give some more thought to it to see if I can come up with another design. EspioKaos 19:10, 14 August 2007 (BST)
  • Having come back to this after a couple of weeks, the answer seems pretty simple: Given that Line Shields sometimes have an "event" material (the field for which could be left blank for the rest), all synthesis categories require either 1 (Grinders), 2 (Decos, Items, Food) or 4 (Weapons, Line Shields) materials. This is very friendly to the "Horizontal Item" layout above as 4 is divisible by 1, 2 and 4 hence colspan would work nicely. Observe:

• Just keeping the ideas going. - Miraglyth 03:10, 11 September 2007 (BST)
  • That does work very nicely. I like it! Perhaps details and materials could be put in bold, however. I think that might look even better. EspioKaos 03:22, 11 September 2007 (BST)
    • ...agreed. They actually are in that vertical table. I missed it in the first horizontal table though, and the following examples carried that mistake down ^^ - Miraglyth 18:54, 11 September 2007 (BST)

Line Shield & Slot Icons

• Maybe they are here but i cannot find them if not though I hope a PC user will be willing to help with this as i cannot take screen shots. Can someone make icons for the Line Shields, Head Slots, Arm Slots, Body Slots & Extra Slots? Should be a hard task with a good screen shot and would be a nice touch for drop charts among other things. -- KyTin 14:53, 7 November 2007 (CST)
  • I was planning on doing this eventually, actually.  :) I'd like to use the slot icons in the line shield chart instead of H, A, B and E. Also, I'd planned on using the line shield icon in each line shield article's stat box, just so it doesn't stretch the table out when "line shield" is broken into two lines. I'm at work right now, so I don't have a way to take screens, but when I get home (won't be until much, much later tonight, however), I can put together the icons if I have time. - EspioKaos 14:59, 7 November 2007 (CST)
    • Cool, sure they will be put to a lot of use if i can help let me know. -- KyTin 15:13, 7 November 2007 (CST)
    • Looks good to me Dulk-senba, anyone mind if we template the icon. -- KyTin 20:38, 8 November 2007 (CST)
      • Templatized.  :D - EspioKaos 21:41, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Enemy spawn chart

• There's some variation amongst the various mission articles and within the slightly elder Rare monsters article itself, so perhaps we should finalise and roll out a standard enemy spawn chart. Things like wikitable and the use of {{Color-A}} are no-brainers, but things like the position of the left-most cloumns or the notation of spawn patterns could use some tightening up. - Miraglyth 18:17, 21 December 2007 (CST)
  • Thrown together everything I can think of at the moment: see here. - Miraglyth 19:23, 21 December 2007 (CST)
    • I know this one's not high on the priority list, but bumping it anyway because Amaury's sandstorm buried it before many would have noticed. - Miraglyth 08:40, 22 December 2007 (CST)
  • Looks great to me. The only thing I could suggest is minor, and that would be to correct a few capitalizations in the table headings.  ;) - EspioKaos 09:58, 22 December 2007 (CST)
    • How about now? Still unsure on whether to push "first spawn" or "initial spawn" (I know it doesn't really matter, but :/ ) and what to do if two map variations share the same block 1. - Miraglyth 08:01, 23 December 2007 (CST)
      • Excellent. And I say go with "initial spawn." Like you said, it doesn't really matter, but I just think it sounds better.  ;) - EspioKaos 08:15, 23 December 2007 (CST)
        • Doubt there'll be further objections, so all that's left is what to do with shared block 1s. As far as I'm concerned, Rare monsters#Fight For Food is an example of vertical stretching looking horrible. My suggestions would be to do as the example is only with far smaller images, or to simply show just the block 2s (and note that), and link the shared block 1 image in the notes beneath the spawn chart. - Miraglyth 08:42, 23 December 2007 (CST)
• Just did a little testing on Fight for Food's chart with smaller images by reducing the A and B pattern images down to 150px. It works, but it looks a little funny. So, I say show block 2 in the chart and make a footnote (with image link) stating that block 1 will look the same between both patterns. - EspioKaos 08:52, 23 December 2007 (CST)
  • Yeah, should be fine. I don't know how to image link without making it considered an external link though, I must admit. - Miraglyth 10:12, 23 December 2007 (CST)
• On another note, if the "certainly not rare" and "certainly rare" colours are fine, suggest making templates such as {{NotRare}} for their code. - Miraglyth 10:12, 23 December 2007 (CST)
  • I'll have to look into making templates for the colors. I'm not sure if I just didn't something wrong, but my first attempt ended in table destruction when I previewed it. D: - EspioKaos 10:32, 23 December 2007 (CST)
    • Made everything red? There'd probably need to be a {{/Rare]} tag that closes off the formatting and (if we go with it ) bolding. - Miraglyth 10:35, 23 December 2007 (CST)
      • Ah, figured it out. I used HTML tags instead of style tags in my first attempt, and that's what killed everything. {{Rare spawn}} and {{Not rare}} are the two templates for this. - EspioKaos 11:02, 23 December 2007 (CST)
        • They were HTML because it seems the only way to target specific text. Those tags as-are will only operate on entire cells. - Miraglyth 11:19, 23 December 2007 (CST)
          • Ah, good point. These will also change the color of initial spawn or whatever other descriptor text is in the cell. We might just have to stick with using un-templated HTML tags to target what we want colored. I don't think that'd be too much of an issue. - EspioKaos 12:03, 23 December 2007 (CST)
            • My thoughts were thus:

Template	Content	Effect
{{RareN}}	<font color="#ff0000">'''	Starts red and bolding.
{{RareY}}	<font color="#007f00">'''	Starts darkgreen and bolding.
{{/Rare}}	'''</font>	Stops bolding and either color.

'course it's not necessary at all, but it's a fair amount of hassle and space saved, was the intention. - Miraglyth 12:38, 23 December 2007 (CST)

• I'm running into the same problem as before. D:

That's what happens. D: - EspioKaos 12:49, 23 December 2007 (CST)

• • Yeah, I tried pretty much the same thing after watchin' ya make those. I have an idea though, let me try something out. - Miraglyth 12:52, 23 December 2007 (CST)
    • Success. It's still about as short as before, with the benefit of being under one template. Whaddaya think? - Miraglyth 13:05, 23 December 2007 (CST)
      • Excellent! That's perfect! - EspioKaos 13:07, 23 December 2007 (CST)
        • Alright, I'm happy with that sandbox as it is. This isn't really the sort of thing that can be put to vote, but how about leaving this one open for 5 days or so in case anyone else has suggestions before pushing for it as the standard to be used in mission articles? - Miraglyth 13:12, 23 December 2007 (CST)
          • Sounds good to me. - EspioKaos 13:18, 23 December 2007 (CST)
            • Quick bump before deadline. Linky again. Anyone got any further changes or suggestions before time runs out on this one? - Miraglyth 09:36, 27 December 2007 (CST)
              • Fine as it is, then? - Miraglyth 08:54, 28 December 2007 (CST)
                • Five days with no further suggestions from anyone; I think we're good to go. Now we can begin transferring spawn data to individual mission articles. - EspioKaos 10:28, 28 December 2007 (CST)
                  • Ahaha, darnit. It's just occured to me that "details" might be a better word than "features" due to character width. It also feels a little more objective, though I kinda like the flavour of "features". - Miraglyth 19:15, 28 December 2007 (CST)
                    • I have to agree. It's a small change, so it won't take much time at all to swap the wording in the tables that have been converted. I'm going to finish up the Duel in the Ruins chart I'm converting, then I'll make the changes to the tables we have in place. ;) - EspioKaos 20:15, 28 December 2007 (CST)
                      • Sure you've noticed, but heads-up: Just converted all the GC and Parum mission articles so the tables are ready for the new format. Also went psycho on the existing Rare monsters article. - Miraglyth 20:30, 28 December 2007 (CST)
                        • Heh heh, I see! Good to be making progress of course. Now that I've converted the Duel in the Ruins table, I'll change the wording of the tables that need it from "features" to "details," then I'll see about converting more tables. I'd like to try to get the most wanted ones that people are always asking about done to help give mission articles more exposure. - EspioKaos 20:38, 28 December 2007 (CST)
• (Too many bullets >.<) On an edit-side note, what's your view on the coding format? Many of the tables in Rare monsters use a separate row for every cell, which does nothing to the article size but might make editing a little easier. - Miraglyth 20:44, 28 December 2007 (CST)
  • I noticed the different coding in the Duel in the Ruins table. It threw me off for a second at first, to be honest. XD Personally, I prefer the style of separating cells in a row with double vertical pipes. (I think that's what they're called.) I've just gotten used to it, I guess. - EspioKaos 20:50, 28 December 2007 (CST)

Closed polls

Please see this page for the archive of closed polls.

Drop templates

Poll will close February 29 at 12:00a.m. (CST)
Kietrinia has devised an alternate method of utilizing enemy and area drop templates. This method consists of one base template which contains all of an enemy or area's special and level drops instead of one template per level tier per enemy/area. (See Template:Dark Falz.) When used in a drop table, we would type the normal template code, in this case {{Dark Falz}}, then insert a vertical pipe after the enemy name followed by the level range or type of drop. So, to display the special drops and then the LV20-29 range for a Delp Slami, we would use {{Delp Slami | special}} and {{Delp Slami | 20}}. Before we begin voting, I'd like to give Kit the floor to further explain this just in case I've missed something. Once voting has begun, please answer with yes or no (in bold) followed by your reasoning and then your signature. - EspioKaos 11:26, 21 February 2008 (CST)

You pretty much got it all. Instead of having one template for each rank, we'll have one that has all ranks with a variable we can specify. Anyone who's curious about all the neat lil things we can do with parser functions should have a look at the Parser Functions page at Meta to see all the neat toys we have at our disposal and all the automation we can add to our templates. Implementing the new style will take time, but it'll clean out the space this wiki uses on the database, and will make adding enemy drop lists more intuitive. Isn't automation fun? ^-^
--Kit 11:49, 21 February 2008 (CST)

• No. I see no particular reason to change them, and it would just create extra work in reworking old templates. Furthermore, this automation/parser stuff is way beyond the scope of understanding for myself, most other staff here, and certainly the average user. If we had more people here who were comfortable/experienced with coding and stuff, then it would be fine, but as it is, most people here know very little about it, and I don't think we have any reason to worry about database size. In summary, I think it would be unnecessarily confusing for not only average contributors (discouraging them from adding their input), but also for most of the staff. --Qwerty 15:37, 21 February 2008 (CST)

• Yes. I think that making the templates more automated is a good idea but I don't think we have to re-work all of the old templates immediately. Regarding complexity: as far as using the templates, neither method is really more complex than the other. Creating the templates, is certainly more complex but I think if the techniques are well documented it could be fairly easy to create new templates from the existing ones. One last note, personally, I do have programming experience but have been reluctant to make too many changes for fear of stepping on someone's feet. Propagandist 23:38, 21 February 2008 (CST)
  • Yay for programming experience! *high fives and/or hugs fellow geek* :D --Kit 09:37, 22 February 2008 (CST)
• No. I've been thinking quite a bit on this over the past few days and I finally came to my decision. Even though it's an excellent idea and nice use of parser functions, I'd rather we spend the time the conversion would take on something of a higher priority. However, I have nothing against the use of parsers in future templates. In fact, I recently attempted to play around with them and they don't seem too terribly difficult to use. (I think my first uses didn't work since I only had a default value set without any other options. Of course, where I was using them wasn't ideal since it wasn't for an options type of template, more of a simple yes or no thing.) - EspioKaos 19:06, 23 February 2008 (CST)

• Yes. Having read the comments of Qwerty and Espio I would have to agree that it's not high on the priority list, and that a confusing/difficult code would make this place inaccessible to the regular editor. That said, having seen the template and checking out the Help:ParserFunctions page, the "switch" function seems simple enough to not go into that. I still doubt it's worth a high spot on the priority list, but it's a lot more concise than making and referencing 10+ templates per enemy. - Miraglyth 05:53, 24 February 2008 (CST)

• Yes. The parser functions in this case are a lot simpler than they look, and I can't think of any good reason not to use them, at the very least for future articles. The main obstacle in this case seems to be the work involved in converting the existing templates and the articles that use them, but compared to some of the existing projects (like template conversions for the existing weapon pages, or missing pages in general) this seems like an easy enough endeavor. Just don't make me do it.... - Sekani 14:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)

• Yes. I've been told that I'm actually allowed to vote in this, so, I vote yes...but with conditions. Alot of people are worried about the amount of time it'd take to convert the old templates. Really, if someone could convert one every other day, it'd be done before we realized it. Letting people convert them would also allow them to get used to the #switch statement code, and possibly develop future ideas for using the parser functions in future template. We don't have to make a huge project out of conversion, but I'd like to see future drop templates created in this fashion. Of course, if anyone gets lost, we've lots of people on here who can help figure it out, and we have a working example at Template: Dark Falz that anyone can look at. :)
  --Kit 09:36, 25 February 2008 (CST)
  • Just for kicks, I messed around with the parser for Template:Karl F. Howzer. It really is pretty easy, and the conversion was relatively quick. I guess when I first saw this, it just looked like a lot since I wasn't familiar at all with the function. Now that I've taken a little time to learn the basics of it, I can see myself putting this to use quite a bit in the future. - EspioKaos 10:54, 25 February 2008 (CST)
• With the end of this poll, the majority are in favor of the new drop template style. Commence conversion! - EspioKaos 08:59, 29 February 2008 (CST)

Unit article template

Please cast your vote on which of the following designs you prefer for individual unit articles. Voting will be open until 12:00a.m. CST Tuesday, September 18. Also, if you have a design of your own, please feel free to submit it for voting. When casting your vote, remember to highlight your choice in bold print and follow it up with your signature.

Proposal #1

Proposal #2

• Proposal #2 - Basically, it's the same thing as the first proposal, however open space has been condensed in the stats table (at the suggestion of Beatrix) and the redundant unit descriptor in the pricing table has been removed. EspioKaos 00:39, 11 September 2007 (BST)
• Proposal #2 - Definitely. I was more than half asleep when I made the Orpad/Guard one. --Qwerty 00:42, 11 September 2007 (BST)
• Proposal #2 - Mewn 01:05, 11 September 2007 (BST)
• Proposal #2: - This is a bit of a joke. - Miraglyth 02:50, 11 September 2007 (BST)
  • Heh, well I just wanted to make it official. Also, it leaves the floor open for suggestions. Of course, whether or not we see anything else is a different story. To be honest, though, maybe a vote isn't necessary on all aspects of standardization. Perhaps just the ones where multiple, independently unique ideas are presented should be voted on? EspioKaos 03:10, 11 September 2007 (BST)
  • Neither of these are complete templates if they don't offer all of the possible fields. Unless you are just talking about how it should look and not creating an actual template (potentially for each type of unit), these won't work because they don't have fields for each of the possible boosts (END/ATA/ATP/EVA/DFP/TECH/MENT). --JustTrio 15:15, 14 September 2007 (BST)
  • I doubt these are actual templates in the sense of there being a Template:Unit or whatever. It's just how it should look, and manually editing it for the appropriate stat boosts is easy, and better than having every stat for every unit when clearly individual units don't boost even half of them. - Mewn 15:22, 14 September 2007 (BST)
    • Exactly. Each type of unit will have the appropriate fields in its article. EspioKaos 15:37, 14 September 2007 (BST)
• Proposal #2 - Any reason we aren't creating templates any more? --JustTrio 11:18, 16 September 2007 (BST)
  • There's no reason we can't, as can be seen by the recently created enemy profile template. It would be a great time-saver. Personally, I just need to learn how to make the larger templates. XD EspioKaos 16:21, 16 September 2007 (BST)
• With the close of the poll, proposal #2 is the new standard. - EspioKaos 12:14, 18 September 2007 (BST)