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Revision as of 23:52, 19 April 2008 by Miraglyth (talk | contribs) (→‎New template proposals)

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Open polls

Stat abbreviations

Which would you prefer that we use for weapon and line shield stats? In-game abbreviations such as Tech. and Acc. or the abbreviations used for a character's base stats, TP and ATA? Voting will be open until Tuesday, April 22, 00:00 CDT. Remember to bold your choice, give your reasoning (if you please) and include your signature.

In-game abbr. Base stat abbr.
Att. ATP
Acc. ATA
Def. DFP
Eva. EVP
Tech. TP
Ment. MST
  • In-game abbreviations - I feel that since we're trying to be as consistent with the game as possible (though it's sometimes difficult considering the game's inconsistencies), we should use the abbreviations used on weapon, line shield and unit pages in our articles. - EspioKaos 18:00, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
  • Base stat abbreviations: While I agree with the concept of staying true to whatever is in the game, I prefer the base stat abbreviations for a purely pragmatic reason: no one ever uses the in-game abbreviations when talking about anything, so using the stats makes it less confusing. But, I figure I'm in the minority here, and this is really minor so I'll go with it either way. Only real issue will be spending time to update all those pages (maybe that can be done via templates, but many of those confuse me so idk). --Qwerty 18:11, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
    • The whole template thing is really what's brought this back up. With us working on and hopefully final-finalizing our weapon and line shield templates soon, it'll be easy to do conversions from one style to the other based on the decision we come to here.  :) - EspioKaos 18:17, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
  • Base stat abbreviations - simply less confusing, and while not technically correct still has grounds in the game. - Mewn 18:23, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
  • In-game abbreviations - The reason why? was this was the first thing that came into my mind when i wrote the idea of the shield line template. Natural instinct i suppose when i talk about equips. But when referring to char stats i would naturally use 'Base Stat abbreviations'. Natasha Milarose 18:36, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
  • In-game abbreviations cause it's more consistent with the game and I'm used to it. I wouldn't mind the base stat either because as Q said it's what is used generally when talking about stats. Essen 18:40, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
  • In-game abbreviations - Truth be told, I don't agree with the "one or the other" nature of this poll because the game uses both sets. But the poll's introduction specifically states "weapon and line shield stats", and the game does use Att., Acc. and friends for those so that's clearly what I'd vote for. If and when we make tables about characters, then I would voice my firm support for ATP, ATA and friends then. As for the "what people call it" - I don't think that's relevant to a wiki, really. Nobody really calls luck "photon fortune" in informal discussion either, but they know what it means. What's the difference in this case? - Miraglyth 03:40, 15 April 2008 (CDT)
  • In-game abbreviations - This wiki should show facts, not opinions, so we should use the terms that are actually used in the game itself. Aurly 04:45, 15 April 2008 (CDT)
  • In-game abbreviations - Basically what Mira said. - Sekani 18:32, 16 April 2008 (CDT)

New template proposals

I'd like to formally propose the following templates for use with our articles on weapons, line shields and units.

And as an example, the Bow Genshi article is using all applicable templates. Going by the ideas that have been thrown around here and with the help of numerous people, these templates have been designed based on the idea of allowing as much automation as possible. Stat tables will update their layout depending on what type of weapon it's for. Where feasible, material quantities and types can be determined by an item's manufacturer and rarity and sell prices for items can be calculated with a simple equation using the item's buy price (when entered). The grinding info table has been updated to allow a single template to change based on the weapon type it's being used for. For example, identifying a table for an RCSM will change the attack variable to Tech. while the values for PP will all be filled in with hyphens.
So what do you guys think? - EspioKaos 10:25, 18 April 2008 (CDT)

  • I like the idea, but to be absolutely honest, these things confuse the hell out of me. That said, I'm sure I could figure them out if I needed to use them/had the time to look at the parameters more closely. --Qwerty 16:57, 18 April 2008 (CDT)
    • Some of those pages I need to go back over and expand on the parameter values and what to do with them. That should maybe clear some things up.  :) - EspioKaos 17:58, 18 April 2008 (CDT)
  • It'll be hell to convert all pages but that's a pretty nice work. Essen 16:59, 18 April 2008 (CDT)
    • If we go with them, we could always just use them for any new pages that we create and then work our way back over older articles and make conversions at our leisure. I wouldn't see much rush since aesthetically everything is pretty much the same. (A few small changes, but nothing that really sticks out.) And thanks again for the help. You helped introduce me to some awesome template functions that I've had a lot of fun playing with. XD - EspioKaos 17:58, 18 April 2008 (CDT)
  • Holy whoa. I love these! - Miraglyth 18:52, 19 April 2008 (CDT)

Armor Line Stats / Board Templates

Addressed to the Permissions department whoever they are..

Greetings, I noticed it seems the Line Sheild pages have been lacking or inconsistent, So I put in abit of time coming up with a more unified template (complete with synth time / success rates which i have tested out personally) for Line boards given in the below example..

Board Stats
Photon [[{{{???-Photon}}}]] x3 Ore Acenaline x1
Hard material {{{Hard Mat}}} x1 - -
[B] Uses 5 Synth Rate 65-70%
Synth Time 0:30 [B] Used {{{Board}}} 
{{Line shield board 1-stars
|???-Photon=
|Hard Mat=
|Board=
}}

The above sample demonstrates the 1star template and it goes on until 10 stars (haven't done 11 yet). The add to further benefits this templates will allow easier to edit Shield Line pages having less to edit and you can adjust on the fly any synth changes of all the pages in one go if sega ever performs another systems adjustments on synthing. The only exception to using this template are the few Shield Lines that requires a Bio material in synth they can use an optimal alternate one.

My 2nd Suggestion is an upgrade to the Shield Line Stats template to this:

Stats
Type
Line shields
 DFP {{{DFP}}} Att {{{Att}}}
Rarity {{{{{rarity}}} star cell}} EVP {{{EVP}}} Acc {{{Acc}}}
Version {{{version}}} MST {{{MST}}} Tech {{{Tech}}}
MAKER {{{Maker}}} END {{{END}}} Req {{{Req}}} 
{{Line shield stats 
|DFP=
|Att=
|rarity=
|EVP=
|Acc=
|MST=
|Tech=
|END=
|Req=
|Maker=
|version=
}}

Data based on current server game adjustments for synths

Board Rarity Synth Time Success Rates Board Uses
1★ 0:30 65-90% 5
2★ 0:30 63-70% 5
3★ 0:30 60-70% 5
4★ 1:00 58-70% 3
5★ 1:00 54-68% 3
6★ 1:00 52-68% 3
7★ 2:00 47-64% 3
8★ 2:30 44-63% 3
9★ 3:00 41-61% 3
10★ 3:00 50-76% 1
11★  ?:00  ??-??% 1
12★  ?:00  ??-??% 1
  • Thats all i have for now I appreciate all the contributions and support, the rest is all yours. I could help on writing the new pages when the templates are finalised. Time to get some sleep for another 12 hour shift. :( Regards Natasha Milarose 08:35, 15 April 2008 (CDT)
    • Excellent! Thanks, Natasha! I've updated the template to include these values. - EspioKaos 09:10, 15 April 2008 (CDT)

I think those with the knowledge would know by now many shield Lines add extra Stats other than the simple DFP, EVP and MST. So this new template provides that. I hope these new suggestions are not too bold. But i do have the templates written up offline and ready to go. Open to any verdicts or rejections.

Regards Natasha Milarose 00:52, 13 April 2008 (CDT)

  • Mainly, I'm just bumping this up to the top of recent changes since I kind of flooded it with minor edits to a work-in-progress template. (Sorry about that. <_<) Anyway, I've been thinking recently about getting a single template set up that would use conditionals to determine the individual synthesis stats based on the entered rarity. That way, we'd only have to worry about a single template instead of multiple. But to be honest, I might be getting in a little too far over my head with that. I've successfully done the conditional template thing a few times, but my most recent attempts have not gone too well. <_<; - EspioKaos 01:59, 13 April 2008 (CDT)
  • That idea sounds better and should put mine as Plan B to fall back on espio, do you have any sample of the template so far, im feeling alittle committed to the shield Line pages at the moment lol. If needed i have collected data based on the current game adjustments on Shield Line success rates (from a 0 armor PM to a 100 armor PM) and its synth times. The only things that fall out of the common equations are the 'specail' Shield lines that use Bio materials, they have their own seperate success rates. Natasha Milarose 03:14, 13 April 2008 (CDT)
  • Conditionals on something like that is tough. You can't really use "If 1 then Acenaline, else if 2 then Wenceline, else if 3 than Aporaline..." because that is insanely messy. It'd really need to be more lookup-based stuff, which can be fiddly to set up within a template but that's a one-time problem. Anyway, as to your suggestion NM: You've got mixed terminology with those stats up there (Att, Acc and Tech vs. TP, DFP, EVP etc.). At this point I would just say "Since this is equipment, use the former" but there's a rarely-voiced disagreement with "which to use" and discussion on that one hasn't resolved yet. - Miraglyth 06:33, 13 April 2008 (CDT)
  • (Att, Acc and Tech vs. TP, DFP, EVP etc) i remember past arguments on that before, however thats not my concern as its not finalised and i was waiting for feedback like yours.. if theres a standard on what terminology yous have set then i would use that, however I'll prob stay out of that argument and see how things play out. It's not a big deal to me which version of those terminology yous use as its all the same. Well in the JP version they only have like the one type of terminology nothing complicated. I hope this terminolgy thing isn't something that would stall this idea for a while.. Natasha Milarose 07:02, 13 April 2008 (CDT)
  • Then yeah. I like this idea a lot. The line shields article used to list Att., Acc. and Tech. bonuses too, but it was taken out "because it's not important in a summary of shields for comparison, things like that are best placed in the individual articles". tbh I've never really agreed with that especially since those stats never were placed in those articles (see: Solid Line, which is essentially based on providing stats instead of slots) and many of them aren't currently documented here anymore! So yeah, it'd be a good addition, definitely. If that board table was meant to be new though, I'm not sure what's different. As to the terminology debate: I've no idea when that'll get sorted. It's something people clash on every so often but are unwilling to resolve. - Miraglyth 09:14, 13 April 2008 (CDT)
  • Nothing exactly is new on the board template its based on PSUpedias original concept except that certain values are now filled out completed instead of having to edit it seperatly on each page, since i discovered the Shield/Armor lines share alittle pattern while testing it out. There for the board template on each individual page you only need to fill out 3 values instead of the 6 or 7 since contributors are always lacking in completness and only fill in like 1 out of 7 values in a template, just think of it as a template upgrade also certain rarity of the template did not exist yet(?). I'll give this alittle more time to see if espios template idea which i see as plan A grows otherwise i might push ahead with my plan B if there are no objections Natasha Milarose 18:30, 13 April 2008 (CDT)
  • Alright, I've got an example ready. Really, it wasn't nearly as difficult as I thought it would be. By using the #switch function, I was able to make a template which automatically fills in materials and quantities based off of a single value, that value being the line shield's rarity. Ultimately, I'll do the exact same for the synthesis times and success rates. That's where the data you've collected comes into play, Natasha.  ;) Template:LS synth test is the template. Now, one thing I'm not certain of how to handle... the extra space. Normally this will be blank. That's easy to do; simply set a default value to be a hyphen. However, for the cell that lists the actual material name, I've hit a snag. I can set the default value as a hyphen for this, but I'm not certain of how I can allow a user to input a material name for the few cases when one is needed yet keep a hyphen when there are no extra materials (outside of requiring the user to type a hyphen). Well, without making a complete list of possible materials as acceptable entries. I'm not against doing that, but I'm sure there's got to be an easier way. Anyone know? - EspioKaos 10:02, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
  • I don't understand what you're asking. Can you give a few examples? Essen 11:44, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
    • Sure. In the case of most line shields, the fourth material cell will be left blank, but on a few, there will be a fourth material which will always be a biomaterial. When it comes to naming this cell, no problem. Type Biomaterial and that's what you'll get. Leave it blank and the default value will add a hyphen. Next up is the cell to the right of that one; the one that would list what material is required along with its quantity. I'd like a way so that by default a hyphen is shown if that value is left blank, yet if you type a material name in this slot (Extra mat., I called it) that material name will appear. The snag I've run into is that when I use a switch command with a default value defined, I don't know how to make it so that whenever anything is typed in that slot, that exact name will appear in the table. As it stands now, with a default defined, no matter what is typed, the default hyphen will be displayed since there are no other parameters defined. - EspioKaos 11:56, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
      • This? Essen 12:02, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
        • I think that's it. So an if instead of a switch. (Crossed my mind, but I think I'm still uncomfortable with ifs, so I was afraid to try them again. XD) Now, is there a way to by default make a hyphen appear in that cell when nothing is typed in? Would the standard #default declaration take care of it? - EspioKaos 12:10, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
          • Like this? Essen 12:29, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
            • HUGE SUCCESS. Seems to be perfect now. Thanks, Essen!  :D Now to fill in the question marked data with Natasha's information and we should be good to go. - EspioKaos 12:31, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
              • Okay. For reference: this section, especially the end of it explaining how to differencies between undefined, empty, and stuff. Essen 12:33, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
  • And now for my take on Natasha's stats template: Template:LS_stats_test. This has another one of those switch lists that will fill in the appropriate rarity color based on the rarity entered. Nothing else too terribly special about it, though. - EspioKaos 15:49, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
  • talk about amazing progress :). Unfortunatly im at work now but i can sketch the information here once im home in like.. 9 hours for you espio. I'm also watching the discussion on the stat abbreviations vote. Ta-ta Natasha Milarose 18:37, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
    • That'll work. Whenever you get a chance to post the data, we can add it to the appropriate spots in the synth board template. Also, I was thinking about doing similar tables for weapons, but it might require a lot more work considering all of the different variables (weapon categories, mostly) that must be taken into consideration. I'd like to think that it's possible to have one base template, and then depending on what data is entered into it, the table's layout would update accordingly (this is mainly in reference to TECHNIC weapons which have one less stat than others), but I'm likely biting off more than I can chew. XD - EspioKaos 19:19, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
      • Oh hot, new template tricks. Yes, this'll work great for weapon templates so we can reduce the number of them we have now. I did already make one base template for weapons EspioKaos and have all other templates call that but with the switch command we'll be able to make the whole setup a lot more "clean". I may play around with this later today if no-one else does. It's always bothered me a bit to have so many templates to be honest! And hey; it's probably possible to generate the whole item stats section using a single template as well for most weapons and armor (minus the drop info, I guess). Aurly 03:16, 15 April 2008 (CDT)
      • Can help with technical details, just correctly separate the various weapons/rarity/manufacturer/... on a draft and I can help design the template itself. Essen 19:26, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
        • Cool, thanks! It doesn't look like I'm going to have time tonight (I've got to head out in a moment), but I'll try to get everything sorted out as soon as possible. - EspioKaos 19:36, 14 April 2008 (CDT)

Weapon stat table template

I almost don't believe it, but I think I was successful in creating a single template which can be used for every weapon in the game to display its stats. Using the stuff that Essen and others have taught me, I was able to get the table to properly adjust itself by adding or removing cells depending on what variables are expressed. Basically, when you identify a weapon type, let's say RCSM, the stat cell for PP will be replaced with Tech., and the the Acc. cell will span two rows to fill in the space left behind. Likewise, TECHNIC weapons will remove the Att. and Acc. cells to replace them with a two-row-spanned Tech. cell. All other weapon types are set to, by default, display PP, Att. and Acc. in the stat cells. Template:Weapon_stats_test is the test template. Let me know what you think! - EspioKaos 12:52, 16 April 2008 (CDT)

  • I finally got around to looking at this, I love it. Do yous need the synth time, success rates for the weapon board stats template or do yous have it already? Natasha Milarose 19:23, 16 April 2008 (CDT)
    • Yeah, that'd be great if you can supply those. I have some in the templates already, but I'm not certain of their accuracy. Some of the values come from older articles here (not certain how old, however) and some come from the Japanese wiki (but I'm not certain if those are up-to-date). - EspioKaos 21:11, 16 April 2008 (CDT)
    • Yeh i'll try finding out for the normal weapons (as in not kubara, crea types) and double check if theres any difference between the Strike,Range and Tech weapons. Natasha Milarose 21:59, 16 April 2008 (CDT)
      • Cool. Thanks for your help!  :D - EspioKaos 10:24, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

Weapon synthesis charts

Alright, I believe I'm more or less done with the synth board templates for weapons.

Template:Weapon_synth_board_test
Template:Weapon_synth_board_test_(Kubara)

The first of those will handle any weapon from G.R.M., Yohmei or TENORA WORKS. The second template is specifically for Kubara weapons, including knockoffs, weapons made from enemy parts and other biomaterials and a mixture of the two (Crea Wand+ is the only one of this type that we know of so far since it uses a gemstone with Kubara Wood, whereas others that use gems/alloys would always use a biomat in place of wood). The Kubara template still requires various bits of data, such as metal quantities sorted by weapon type, Kubara type and rarity. Also, synthesis success rates and times must be added (if possible) since the way I have it now allows you to fill in your own time and rate. We'll need to investigate these numbers to see if there's any correlation between rarity, Kubara types and times/rates. For the sake of automation, I'm hoping there is, but considering how many variables and exceptions I've come across making this thing, I get the feeling it won't be so easy. Anyway, questions, comments? - EspioKaos 10:24, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

Closed polls

Please see this page for the archive of closed polls.

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